Defending Stephanie Seymour

Here’s an example of someone trashing the beautiful Stephanie Seymour for daring to be affectionate with her son in public. I’ll edit the quotes slightly to remove language that some people still get upset about.

One of the things that has me saying “Are you f------ stupid?” are the photos of Stephanie Seymour and her son.

She goes on…

The photos do look like she’s making out with her son. A little creepy…yes!

Why is that creepy?

Is it normal for a son to cop a feel of the boobies?

For some people, yes. Jealous?

Turns out her son is gay. Which apparently makes it ok to make out with your hot Mom on a beach.

It’s okay for any adult to be affectionate with any consenting adult on a beach. It should certainly be legal.

My question is, “Are you f------ stupid?”

Maybe they were simply having some minimal affection. Or maybe it is a sign of more. What’s the problem? What’s stupid is trashing others for sharing love and affection.

I have to admit, I’m vey curious to hear your thoughts on the pics.

My thought is that it is too bad that everyone can’t be on such good terms with their parent or child.

What Is a Taboo?

Mary Lupin writes…

Is that what taboo is then? A way of protecting an untenable, but dearly held, belief from examination? An interesting thought when one considers taboo subjects like incest. When I was an undergraduate anthropologist I remember thinking about the universal incest taboo and realizing that meant that it was also universal behaviour. The question is do we make it taboo to stop it or to hide it?

The incest taboo is part of an overall attempt to control the sexuality of the masses. Whether we’re talking consanguineous sex, polyamory, same-sex reationships, interracial relationships, intergender relationships (between adults), we’re dealing with something that the sex police have tried to discourage as a way to exert control over others. Intergender relationships have been strictly controlled so that only older male-younger female relationships have been permissible, for example; otherwise, they have to be the same generation.

Prohibitions drive the relationships underground and cause many problems. This should no longer be allowed. We should talk about and respect the freedom of others to share love, sex, and marriage the way they want.

Open Relationships and Love

Love Destiny asks...

What I want to know is can two people who are together and in an open relationship REALLY love each other? Are they as in love and comitted as monogomous people? Or are they just really close friends with benefits?

Most of the answers I saw were hateful or ignorant…

“no”

“there are all sorts of neurotic love relationships”

If people in a relationship decide that at least one of them is available for some additional form of relationship or sex with someone else because that is what best meets their needs why is that neurotic?

“i think when your truely in love, theres only one person you WANT to be with”

Monogamy isn’t what works for everybody. In fact, it appears to work for only a minority of people.

“No they are not. Someone who is not willing to give you the full attention you deserve can not possibly be truly in love. A person who needs the attention of others in a relationship is just plain too selfish to actually feel love for someone else.”

Where does this come from? It is arbitrary.

At least there was some more friendly responses.

some couples choose to have open relationships who have been together 20, 30 years etc… they cant bare to seperate but no longer have a healthy sex life with each other so they have an open relationship

That is one situation. There are also people who do have a healthy sex life with each other, and they decide to have an open relationship.

jryanwinterhaven wrote a long comment…

Contrary to the opinion of most of the commenter’s here who clearly have had little or no exposure to people who are in open relationships the answer is,Yes, people who are in open relationships can love each other and do. There are all kinds of open relationships out there that have different rules just as monogamous relationship have rules to guide them.

Thank you.

Of those in “Open Relationships,” those who describe themselves as Polyamorous, as I do, means that they have a emotionally loving relationship with more than one partner. A subset of this is Polyfidelity (as I consider myself) that has made a long-term loving commitment amongst their partners (something akin to a marriage – though not in the same manner as our culture would see it). Love and commitment is essential to this type of Open relationship”. With others it may or may not rise to the level of love, but there is a relationship that is somewhere on the scale between friends and loves.

It is always good to see people stand up to ingnorance and hate and give a thorough explanation. Not only do many of the people in open relationships love each other, in some cases the love some people have for each other is one of the reasons why their relationship is open in the first place. Chew on that.

Biphobia From Lesbians?

Araliya writes on “Bi-phobia, and the importance of community.” She’s married to man and plans to stay married to him, but…

Today, I think a more accurate description of me would be that I am a lesbian who occasionally fancies men.

She is bothered by a lack of solidarity for bisexual women in the lesbians she has encountered.

To be fair, I should state up front that I have met and in some cases had relationships with polyamorous lesbians who didn’t have a problem with bisexuality, or at least with my being married to a man, so clearly they do exist. However, the overwhelming majority have been bi-phobic, and some very aggressively so.

She tried to explain what could be going on.

I think the problem lies in heterosexual privilege. Out lesbians have committed to a lifetime of potential if not actual discrimination. In most countries, they can’t marry their partners, have little to no protection under the law, and have to deal with the social stigma attached to being gay. They don’t have a choice in the matter. I think the hostility towards bisexuals comes in part from the fact that we can, at any point, retreat into heterosexual privilege. I am married to a man. That affords me a certain amount of social protection, whether I like it or not. Even if I shouted my bisexuality from the rooftops, the fact that I am in a straight relationship means that my queerness can be ignored wholesale. I can ‘feel’ as lesbian as I like – socially, I have a kind of protection that no out, exclusively homosexual person does. And even if I wasn’t married to a man, the fact of my bisexuality represents a sort of escape route if things get too dicey over in lesbian-land – an escape most lesbians do not have and could not access without denying who they are.

I see this as one of the harms of a lack of marriage equality. To reach equality, we need solidarity; we need to stand for the civil rights of all, not just for gays, not just for lesbians, but also for the bisexual, transgendered, polyamorous, and consanguineous.

He Has a Girlfriend, But is Still Active With Sister, Mother

This guy is a senior at a university and has a girlfriend he wants to marry, but he’s been keeping a secret from her.

I am into incest. Not in a fetish or fantasy way, but as a lifestyle. My sister who is a year younger than me and I have been having sex since I was sixteen and she was fifteen. About a year after we started our mom caught us in the act. Instead of being upset mom said something about her always wanting this to happen, then she asked if she could join us.

He goes on to write that with varying frequency, he’s been having sex with his sister and sex with his mother ever since.

Should I tell my girlfriend. Should I invite her to participate. I love her, but I still have strong family love for both my mom and my sister. Think of it this way, my love for my mom and sis are probably the same as yours for your mom and the rest of your immediate family. The only difference is the I have sex with my family. I never thought of sex with mom or my sister as “cheating” on my girlfriend.

I know some people see it that way, but I think if his girlfriend believes they have agreed to strict monogamy or wants to know about any other current sex partners, then I think he is cheating on his girlfriend. He doesn’t make it clear his mother and sister know about his girlfriend, and so he could very well be cheating on them, as well. But I think the silence about that implies that his sister and mother are aware of his relationship with his girlfriend.

He certainly should not marry his girlfriend without her being aware of and agreeable to any ongoing sexual relationship with anyone else. That means he does have the option of ending the sex with his sister and mother, or telling his girlfriend what is going on. I’d say there is what would be a minority chance she will agree to marry him (or stay with him at all) if he tells her what has been going on. The chance is even smaller that she’d be agreeable to this continuing, and even smaller that she would join in. If she would join in (and his sister and mother would likewise be agreeable) than he’d be quite a lucky guy. It isn’t unheard of for someone to agree to share a person with two of the person’s relatives, though each situation is different.

I have to wonder if this would be an issue if we had full marriage equality. Perhaps the writer would marry his sister, his mother, or both?

John Z told the writer to stop having sex with his sister and mother…

Although I don’t personally know anybody who has had vaginal intercourse with their mothers, I do have two friends, each of whom had a sexual relationship with their sisters during high school. Both of these guys are in very secure marriages (both now over 30 years), have children, and have been very successful in life. I had no knowledge of their incestuous relationships until well after college when each of them told me about it (one, because I lusted after his sister in high school and he was aware of it… lucky guy!). So, it is isn’t impossible to end an incestuous relationship.

Of course it isn’t impossible. It isn’t necessary in many cases where others advise it, but it is possible.

While John Z was neutral about the consanguineous sex, the other two responses were from bigots.

Mother and Son Affectionate, Bigots Freak Out

The gossip media is abuzz talking about supermodel Stephanie Seymour and her 18-year-old son Peter Brant II. Why? There are pictures of them enjoying some time together (with others) in the surf, including pictures of them embracing, kissing, holding hands. In some of the pictures, Brant’s hand is on the side of his mother’s swimsuit-clad breast as they hug. There is also speculation about whether Brant’s body is showing a sexual a reaction. Of course, at that age, that can happen for no reason at all.

There is nothing wrong with any of this. Shame on anyone who would try to discourage affection between a parent and adult child. What’s in the pictures could be the extent of their physical affection. Or maybe there is more. But that is between them, and I think a lot of people are jealous either way, as they are both attractive people, and some people wish they had even the most minimal contact with their parents or children. Do not tear down others for having a warm relationship.

Salon.com recaps some of the buzz.

A supermodel in a bikini kissing a hot guy is surefire tabloid fodder -- but a supermodel in a bikini kissing her son? That is pure, creepy gold.

Creepy? Yes, the bigots seem to think so.

Does it matter that Seymour, who recently reconciled with estranged husband Peter Brant, was on vacation with her whole family at the time? Does it matter that the photos were clearly taken in rapid succession, from at least two different angles, suggesting that what might appear a languorous caress was instead a brief embrace? Does it matter, further, that Peter Jr. is openly gay?

It doesn’t matter to the gossips. Some of the people commenting on the coverage probably think that a man who is strictly gay can be "turned" by the "right" woman. The writer shows intelligence…

But how many random news sites or commenters on them could confidently recognize familial warmth if they saw it? Maybe the idea that a teenage child would still even want to put an arm around his mother, would offer an unsolicited kiss, is so rare as to be downright odd. But that doesn't automatically make it weird or gross or creepy. And as any mother with a rapidly growing up child knows, it might even make it enviable.

It isn’t weird or gross or creepy either way. If it isn’t for you, that’s fine. Don’t begrudge others affection and love. Check out the pictures for yourself. They are quite nice.

Cheating and Nonmonogamy

Omgrey argues that there would be less cheating if polyamory and other forms of negotiated nonmonogamy were consciously adopted by more people, and looks at the “That doesn’t work.” charge.

Perhaps it is monogamy that doesn’t work. Certainly not for everybody. That said, alternative lifestyles like Polyamory don’t work for everyone either. Couples are like snowflakes: no two are alike. What works for one couple may not work for another. There is not a magic tool that will fix all marriages, but it helps to have as many tools in your toolbox as possible; that is, if your goal is to have a healthy, happy marriage.

Let people decide for themselves.

Perhaps the greatest problem with the monogamy model is that it does not leave room for personal growth and personal satisfaction. The monogamy model shows us that once you are married you stay married…or you get divorced. Or, of course, you cheat. But then, you are no longer monogamous.

I disagree in that I believe that there are people who experience personal growth and personal satisfaction within monogamy. I would agree that monogamy provides more restrictions to these ends.

What happens if someone finds mutual attraction with another, outside of a committed relationship?

So. What are your choices? Deny your own desires, or worse, your heart if you’ve fallen “in love”? This can mean to emotionally castrate yourself, which can actually cause physical ailments.

Your other choice, the one that has become far too common in our society, is to cheat on your spouse, jeopardizing your marriage and family, if you have children. All for what? To feel good. Not attractive options. Especially because this new “in love” euphoria, too, will fade over time. As many people find out in their second and third marriages. It always does. It is biology.

Here is a third option: Polyamory.

Polyamory is many things, but it is not a license to have sex with whomever or whenever you want. Not necessarily. Not unless that is what you and your spouse decide.

Omgrey goes on to give advice for being in the situation of not wanting to cheat on a spouse when finding attraction with another.

I strongly recommend not cheating. It is possible that a committed partner would be willing to negotiate about the involvement of others, such as moving from monogamy to polyamory or some other form of nonmonogamy. I’m not saying it is likely, though. This is why I strongly recommend that people discover who they are before they make what they intend to be a permanent commitment in the first place. Are they suited to marriage? If so, what kind of marriage? Be honest with yourself, and honest with potential partners.

Something else to keep in mind is that even with a great spouse who agrees to a form of nonmonogamy, someone can still be a jerk and a cheater who violates the generous agreement negotiated. But I do believe that having the legal and social freedom to choose a form of nonmonogamy will reduce cheating and divorce in general.

Some People Actually Enjoy Sex

In his blog entry and subsequent comments, C.J. appears to claim that legal adults aren’t really adults until age 30, so they can’t possibly consent to sex with a parent before then. What’s more is that sex is a bad thing most of the time, apparently.

Epstein's daughter no more "consented" to her father's attentions than a child "consents" to his soccer coach's attentions. One of the most difficult aspects of post-molestation therapy is helping the survivor overcome his or her guilt. Children--and make no mistake, teenagers are still children--are relatively easy to coerce.

We hold adults responsible for their actions, whether they are 18, 21, or 35.

Likewise, incest is a crime perpetrated on the individual, that damages the individual.

I wonder if people who use these arguments can only enjoy sex if they are the same age or older than their sex partner? Their arguments seem to be based on an assumption that the adult child is getting no enjoyment or benefit out of the relationship, or that if they think they are, that adult child must have some form of reduced capacity.

Carla asked in the comments…

What is your opinion of sibling incest then? I wasn't necessarily thinking of the legality; I was curious about your personal moral opinion of it. You mention that there's a problem with it - what is that?

C. J. replied…

My personal moral problem with it is that it represents a betrayal of trust.

Again, I get the impression that these people think sex is generally abusive and about betraying other people.

First, the confusion of roles and relationships involved is highly damaging to both parties.

Some siblings disagree with you. They have found that becoming lovers has made their lives better. They don’t have a confusion of roles, they have additional roles.

How, after engaging in an incestuous relationship with a sibling, is this person supposed to move forward and have a normal life?

The same way someone has a normal life after the end of any sexual relationship.

In the cases I've read, post-incest survivors reported having an extremely difficult time forming attachments to other people, and an almost impossible time enjoying sex.

There are people who claim that any sex someone had with someone they are no longer having sex with hinders that person’s ability to form attachments and enjoy sex. It is one of the main reasons given by monogamy proponents who say that nobody should have sex outside of a monogamous marriage. Shall we make all sex outside of marriage illegal? Outlaw remarriage?

But there are people who say that after having a sexual relationship with their sibling, nothing else can compare. So it would have been better that they never had that great experience? That’s a rather lousy way to live life, if you say people shouldn’t do things unless they can be assured that they will always be able to have things that good.

Moreover, I feel like, in a family structure where there are no taboos, how do you teach that abuse is wrong?

Who said there were no taboos? Here’s what we should teach other other: Don’t do things against another person’s will, like hitting them or touching them.

How do you even define abuse?

It really isn’t that hard. An adult having sex with, raping, or fondling a minor is abuse. A much older minor having sex with, raping, or fondling a minor is abuse. Beating someone else is generally abuse. Like that.

It seems to me that the potential for domestic violence is much greater.

Huh? Why, do you beat your lover, or would you beat your family member if you were having sex with them?

Also, once the relationship starts, how does it end?

The same way any other relationship ends. Or it doesn’t end. There are family members who go into business together, and a lot of new businesses fail. A lot of sexual relationships end. Should it be illegal for family members to go into business together?

Then, of course, the question is, what happened in these kids' early lives to cause them to be attracted to each other?

People used to ask that about LGBT people, too. That you don’t understand why someone is attracted to someone else does not mean that anyone else has a problem.

Really, we get it. You’re not attracted to anyone in your family. Or if you are, you don’t want us to know it, and you think it would be a bad idea to act on it. Fine. You don’t have to.

Hate Adds Pain to Genetic Sexual Attration and GSA Relationships

Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA) is a condition that may be experienced when close genetic relatives who have been separated for significant amounts of time, often since birth or before puberty, are reunited. It describes an intense physical or emotional attraction, and may include sexual attraction or be expressed through sex. The attraction may or may not be mutual. Even if mutual, not all GSA results in sexual contact. (Some people prefer the term "Genetic Attraction.")

Reading accounts or watching documentaries about those struggling with GSA feelings or related actions can be heartbreaking. There are many reasons as to why.

First of all, there are all of the problems that come with any attraction or any relationship. One person is attracted to someone else and that attraction is not mutual, or is mutual only for period of time. Relationships involve at least two different people who are trying to get along with each other and to deal with those outside the relationship as well. This can all be increased when the individuals are biologically related.

This new attraction and resulting relationship can bring change, disruption, and uncertaintly to someone’s life, which is again something that may happen in general relationships as well, but can be more of an issue with biological relatives and the strong pull of GSA. This is especially a problem when someone has made a life and perhaps has existing vows with someone else. For example, a married, monogamous woman who gets in contact with a biological half-brother and finds herself strongly attracted to him and wanting to spend time with him, with or without sex. The time and attention taken from her marriage may be enough of a problem, but add sexual cheating to the mix, and it is even worse. She may love and value her husband, but feels this intense connection or draw to her half-brother that must be suppressed if she wants to have a chance to save her marriage. In that case, either choice is painful. Or what if she doesn’t want to save her marriage? What if it was dying before the GSA issue surfaced? Divorce is usually a painful experience anyway.

Some people experiencing GSA are disturbed by their feelings (or the feelings of their relative) because they feel a need to have that person in their life as a sibling, a parent, or a child, and they see sexual attraction or sex as incompatible with that role. They may feel like they finally had something they were missing for so long, only to have it taken away by unexpected or unwanted feelings and resulting tensions. Just the unfamiliar nature of these feelings may be bothersome.

In addition to all of the usual problems someone with an unrequited attraction or a mutual attraction between people can bring, one that is different with GSA is, of course, the legal, familial, social, and religious prohibitions imposed against sex with and marriage to close relatives. Incest between consenting adults is still criminalized in many places, including most US states, and bigotry against people in such relationships or experiencing such attraction continues to be perpetuated, sometimes in the most hateful and harmful ways.

This is sometimes compounded by a lack of solidarity. Even if there is a GSA relationship that didn’t break up any existing families, marriages, or relationships, and the individuals are happy together and able to share their lives in a functional way despite legal and social challenges, they may be rebuffed or judged when they reach out for understanding and support from others. Other people experiencing GSA who have decided not to have sexual relationship or have ended a sexual relationship or want to end their sexual relationship may disapprove of those who want to engage in or continue their sexual relationship. Or, if the GSA relationship is intergenerational, interracial [biracial with non-biracial], same-sex, or polyamorous, other people experiencing GSA may express disapproval based on one of those factors (in addition to all of the other people who disapprove based on those factors). Finally, those who have recently struggled or are still struggling for their own freedom to marry or just the basic freedom of association, such as LGBT people or poly people, may express contempt for consanguineous sex and love, including in cases where GSA is factor, or may be unsupportive of those in GSA relationships gaining the freedom to marry. Thus, instead of finding comfort from those who have also been targeted by those who want to control the sexuality of other adults, people experiencing GSA may find some more vitriol or at least a cold shoulder.

All of these things can bring pain and hardship to GSA relationships. Laws and public attitudes can be changed. There is some help for those struggling to deal with their feelings or the feelings of someone else or just to be themselves, but that help would be greatly aided by a change in the laws and public attitudes. That is one reason I call for solidarity. Someone who is struggling with GSA does not need the added burden of laws and finger-wavers that treat them as second-class citizens or with hate and impede their ability to make decisions in the best interest of themselves and their loved ones.

[Edited for typing errors and clarity.]

More Musings Prompted by David Epstein Case

Doug Mataconis takes a look at the legal issues raised by the David Epstein case, especially in light of Lawrence vs. Texas.

What it does mean, however, is that just because we don’t like something doesn’t mean it should be illegal, and that I cannot think of any good reason why Professor David Epstein should go to jail.

Thank you.

A psychoanalyst writes…

There is almost no way to construct a rational, legally based morality that forbids incest between adults. Most of us have a visceral reaction of disgust when we think about incest because the taboos are so deeply ingrained but the incest taboo can not be supported by rational argument alone.

But the writer tries to come up with a reason that consanguineous sex is wrong for everyone…

In parent-child incest the difference between generations is denied and the significance of the primal ties between parent and child are denied.

The difference between generations is denied? No more so that any other intergenerational sex between adults. Those relationships are not illegal and are widely accepted, and so this can’t be a reason to have laws against consanguineous sex.

Parents and adult children are not legally obligated to have any ties. Ever hear of estrangement? Disinheritance? Also, I don’t think most people in these relationships deny their “primal ties.” Most are very aware of such ties.

Objections like these don’t even deal with the fact that laws are written in such a way that siblings, uncles/aunts and nephews/nieces can also be prosecuted for consensual sex.

What exactly is the offending behavior? What if a woman who was adopted as a newborn finds her birth father and pursues a relationship with him? It is okay for them to kiss each other on the cheek? The lips? It is okay for one to massage the other and touch every part of the other’s body except the genitals? Is it okay for them to live together and take care of each other? What exactly is wrong and should be illegal, and why? Those who want to deny others their rights to love, sex, and marriage don’t seem to give details, but they should have to justify and clarify why, exactly, they want to prevent other people from doing what they want to do with each other. They often cite “inbreeding,” but that is only possible with heterosexual intercourse and carrying a fetus to term. What about consanguineous same-sex relationships? Birth control? All of the other kinds of sex that aren’t intercourse? Are those wrong and justly outlawed just because the lovers are related?

Others May Consent to Something You Wouldn't

“Anonymous” left a comment on the post "Bigotry Expressed.” My response is below.

Thank you, Anonymous, for your thoughtful consideration and for comment.

I do not think she makes a good argument, because she expresses blanket certainty about diverse things about which she could not possibly be certain. There are adult children who are emphatic that they freely consent to have sex with a parent, some of whom claim to be the initiator, and others who would like to, but haven’t. It is their experienced word against her inexperienced word. Has she interviewed everyone involved and performed careful psychological analysis of each case?

If she had said that some apparently consensual cases could be the result of selfish grooming on the part of a parent, and explained that dynamic, then she would have a good argument.

“It seems pretty reasonable to presume that if a parent is having sex with their child, even an adult child, that the parent groomed the child into the sexual relationship.”

That may be reasonable to presume in some cases, but is a presumption that may or may not turn out to be true. Let’s assume the parent was a primary custodial parent. Is it impossible that a child could grow up having a healthy relationship with that parent, and after getting out of the home for college, the military, or any other form of establishing themselves, that adult child realizes that they have a sexual attraction to their parent? I do not think that is impossible. In addition, consider when the parent did not have primary custody or any custody, as is the case in so many Genetic Sexual Attraction cases.

It used to be widely agreed that it was reasonable to presume that someone who was attracted to someone of the same sex, which was classified as a disorder, must have those feelings as a result of flawed parenting, or a molestation or grooming. The truth is, people have a wide variety of attractions. You probably have some friends who have been attracted to someone and you can’t for the life of you figure out why. Likewise, some people are not attracted to their own parent and do not understand why someone else would be attracted to her own parent.

“It follows then that the law should prohibit incest to make sure that parents aren't grooming their children into a sexual relationship.”

It does not follow. There are mechanisms in place that could be used, especially if enhanced, to protect minor children from deficient parenting. I do believe that the job of a parent is to raise their minor child to be independent adults who only depend on others as a result of consent, usually for mutual benefit, support, or emotional fulfillment. But it is possible for a parent to do that and have the child become an adult and freely consent to sex with that parent. I strongly condemn child abuse. I would consider grooming a minor child to be your sexual partner to be child abuse. The crime should be in the grooming, not in any consensual sex adults have. If you want to write a new law for that one because you don't think existing child abuse laws suffice, go ahead.

There are many reasons a person, including that adult child, will have sex. Some are better than others. The question is legality. I would not advise someone else to have sex for each of the following reasons, but I would not want most of them to be illegal…

1. To bring physical or emotional pleasure to someone else
2. To express love/affection for/bond with another person
3. As a form of recreation or celebration
4. Religious ritual/command (do not withhold yourself from your spouse, etc.)
5. As a form of exercise or therapy
6. To reproduce
7. To satisfy curiosity, a desire, an urge
8. To gain or keep someone else’s attention
9. For ego/conquest
10. To emotionally hurt or anger someone else
11. To gain advantage/information
12. For compensation/trade
13. To infect someone else with a sexually transmitted disease without their consent

That’s not an exhaustive list and and there is some overlap, but out of all of those, the only ones that should be criminal are 13 and perhaps 12. #12 is illegal in many places, especially if the compensation is in the form of cash, but it is not currently the focus of this blog to argue about prostitution laws. An adult daughter (or son) may consent to or pursue sex with a parent primarily for the second reason, and that isn’t wrong if it doesn’t break existing vows to others and shouldn’t be illegal. I would say doing it for #10 would be wrong, but shouldn’t be illegal.

“But, I would ask you if at least some incestuous relationships are wrong?”

Any incestuous relationship involving nonconsent (which includes “consenting” minor children being used by adults) is wrong and should be illegal. Other relationships, including adult incestuous ones, may or may not be wrong. Some people consider a 20-something man and a 40-something woman wrong, or a woman and two men, or someone of Asian ancestry with someone of European ancestry, or a Buddhist and a Christian, or two people who bicker constantly as relationships that are wrong. Should any of them be criminal? No. As long as they are consenting adults, it should not be criminal. Do some people make better decisions than others? Yes. People consent to do all sorts of things they later regret. Doesn’t mean it should be illegal. If you can make a case that a specific 20-something woman is mentally ill or deficient to the point of not being able to consent and that the other person should have been aware of this, then that should be criminal (and the 20-something should have a legal guardian). But that would apply to anyone having sex with her, not just a close relative.

Something else that comes to mind is S&M. If you handcuff a nonconsenting stranger or a child for any reason other than law enforcement or self-defense, you are doing something that should be criminally wrong. But is it wrong to handcuff your consenting lover? Of course not. “Handcuffing” and “incest” are descriptions of behaviors, but those behaviors can be right or wrong. They should only be illegal when there is a lack of consent.

Thank You, Nancy Whitlow

Nancy Whitlow wrote to the Telegraph Herald of Dubuque, Iowa, to champion marriage equality in response to someone who is against marriage equality.

Definitions are made by people and are updated on a regular basis. What tradition is so sacrosanct that millions of people should be denied basic human rights to perpetuate it?

Slavery was a tradition. That women couldn't vote or own property was a tradition. Someone from a culture with the tradition of polygamy, which Mr. Leifker mentions as undesirable, could make the same argument that this tradition should be upheld.

"Where does it end?" he asks. It would be wonderful if it would end in all people being able to make loving commitments to each other in marriage.

Shouldn’t the “end” be allowing all adults to marry the consenting person or person(s) he or she wants to marry? Why do we deny this right to any free, consenting adult?

Making It Work

Joseph at Escape to Polygamy notes the increasing awareness of poly people and talks about “The Brutal, Honest, and Unforgiving Truth.”

[Years ago] of course the media would focus hard on any negative they could find (and rightly so). Yet the negatives they could find were the exact same abuses that occur without bounds in "monogamous" relationships.

Agreed. A criticism of polyamory by someone promoting monogamy should never cite something in polyamorous relationships that is commonly found in relatioships with people who profess to be monogamous.

Today, the media is switching positions and there are many articles and reports in favour of adult, consensual polygamous relationships, which is a great thing.

Yes it is.

Yet there is still a silly, yet disturbing, propaganda being spread by both those who claim to be supporters of the poly lifestyle and those who claim to be living it, as well as warnings against living it by those who are in opposition.

A well meaning group trying to warn others considering this lifestyle, that it is not all a bed of roses. And this is of course true. But once again, the focus is on the polygamous lifestyle, as if it were any different from the "monogamous" lifestyle is absurd. The same personality quirks exist in polygamous unions, as they do in all other areas of life.

Some of the Brutal, Honest, and Unforgiving truths that are being touted are things like jealousy, coveting, control, territory, bullying, dominance, abuse, legal spouse, legal ownership, life insurance, medical care, etc, etc. These are just some of the "brutal truths" that we are warned against in polygamous unions.

These do sound a lot like the issues faced in monogamous relationships. They might pop up in any relationship.

As adults we enter the workforce, or marry, and still need to get along and work things out in our own circle of influence. This is no different in a polygamous union. If there is a jealousy issue, then work it out. Stop being a prissy little brat.

Read the whole thing for a lot of practical advice.

Yes, We Can

Over at Loving More Than One, we see that yes, we can get along.

I think it's a natural course in most instances for one person to love more than the other person (whether monogamous or polyamorous). Or at least it easier for one person to show and express that love more easily. One seems to always give a bit more than the other (sometimes quite more than a bit). One is usually more secure than the other.

This is along the lines of what I think about when someone is against intergenerational relationships between adults, whether consanguineous or not. The excuse used to object to someone else finding love is that there is a difference in power and life experiences. But there are very few, if any, relationships where that isn't a reality. One person usually has seen more of the world than the other, or has better emotional coping skills, or more money, or more friends, or more family, or more status, or any number of other traits or resources.

Polyamory requires some sense of self worth. It requires not having the mentality of win-lose situation. It requires the ability to see a win-win situation. It means not seeing other relationships your loved one may have as competition.

Ding ding ding!

If you realize that you are not fine with what you stated, there is nothing wrong with explaining this to your partner and dealing with it from there. You have to own that you have a part in the pain or issues you are experiencing. That you can’t do blame if your partner was told this was ok.

Feelings may change over time, and it is okay to talk about that.

In all relationships in your life you need to treat each other with the respect and dignity that we are all due. Most specifically from those we trust with our feelings. With those we love and who profess to love us.

Good words to keep in mind.

Can't We All Just Get Along?

RobinD asks if polyamory perpetuates relationship competition.

All of the trainers talked about the nature of self-comparison and repeatedly encouraged us to compare ourselves to that other person until we could pinpoint something we are better at (i.e. looks, smarts, personality, etc.). Their coping suggestions all involved competition and self esteem through cutting down someone else.

Society teaches women this competition as the way that we are supposed relate to
each other, it prevents us from creating real community, and helps perpetuate
patriarchy.

Marriage equality should be about lifting each other up, not putting anybody down. Competition can be a good thing, but destruction of others doesn't have to be a part of good competition, nor does there need to be competition in relationships. If someone can't handle that a partner will be with someone else without getting destructive about it, than that someone wants monogamy, not polyamory. That's fine. Polyamory isn't for everyone.

He's Considering His Mother

There's no way to know for sure if someone is being sincere or not when they submit a question to Yahoo Answers, but either way, we can learn something by the questions being asked and the responses given. The responses to questions like this one usually include a bunch expressing the standard prejudice, ignorance, and bigotry. It is always good to have the reasonable and helpful answers pop up, too. In this instance, the asker claims to be contemplating approaching his mother for a consanguineous sexual relationship.

my roommate from college has been my friend for the last 3-4 years and I found out hes been sleeping with his mom since he was 17. though i admit his mom is beautiful i was disgusted at 1st but i got over it cause hes probably my best friend and the coolest guy i know.

This is the best way allies are made: through personal relationships. It helps people get over an initial prejudice.

but hes been talking to me about it and though i didnt want to hear any of it at 1st the more he talks to me about it the more im liking it and last night while i was at my girls place the whole time i was picturing my mom and it disgusted me and excited me at the same time and now i think i wanna be with my mom cause ive begun to look at her as a women and i realized shes very attractive.

There are many factors to consider when comptemplating approaching anybody in addition to physical attractiveness.

please no trolls or a--holes do u think i should go for it or no i love her but im afraid that id ruin our relationship.

Well that’s the big consideration, isn’t it? Approaching some unrelated acquaintance who attends the same college might result in that person avoiding you in the future should they rebuff your advances, or should you stop seeing each other after a while. Or you might not want to have to sit in the same class. In that case, it is not a big risk. But it is a different matter when it is someone who is closer to you, or with whom you already have some existing relationship, whether familial, emotional, business, or otherwise.

This person appears to have a girlfriend, and I do not recommend having sex with anybody else when you have an existing vow to someone that precludes that. So even if the asker decides to approach his mother, he should only do so if he has broken it off with the girlfriend or has agreement from the girlfriend to sleep with others. And now that I think about it more, the asker does not mention if his mother has a husband, boyfriend, or dates, or other children, and those things matter. I'm assuming she doesn't.

All the research ive done so far has said that those that go into incest as consensual adults usually have happier lives if u can believe.

Generalizations can be problematic, but yes, there are people who are happier than they were before once they have a consensual consanguineous sexual relationship.

i just turned 22 and shes 37 and in truth i have been with older women and also she cant have kids she got her tubes tied long ago

Prior experience with older women can be helpful.

So what kind of responses were left? From the “Best Answer” came this:

You will have some hefty obstacles to overcome, not the least of which is the fact that your mom has not been having these sexual fantasies.

It is possible she has, however slim the chances.

But if you actually love your mother and don't want to just "do" her a couple of times to see what it's like, then you need to take a deep breath, step back and consider what will happen afterward. How will having sex with her change you, and change her? How will you act to each other?

Good advice.

What kind of people will you be once you lose the "mother/son" roles?

It can be more complicated than that. Do they have to lose those roles, or will they add to them?

And it is possible for consensual adult incest relationships to succeed. But it takes an incredible commitment, depth of understanding, partnership, and strength of character that most people simply are not capable of. Do you want to expose your mom to the risks you could be letting her in for, making her go through all the emotional pain and upheaval that you may or may not be willing to face yourself?

These are important considerations that apply somewhat to all relationships, but are more pronounced in an example like this.

On to another answer…

The best thing to do in this case is ask your friend if he is willing to share his mom. Your friend and his mom might like the idea of a 3 way and then you can decide if it is gross or not.

This makes no sense. First of all, just because the three of them all want consanguineous sex does not mean that any of the three of them (and it would take all three) want a threesome or ongoing triad. Having sex with one or two other people will not indicate if his feelings for his mother are a passing infatuation or something more.

Who knows if she and he are willing she might just let you call her mom.

Role playing is different from actual experience.

Women are beautiful, but complex creatures. The specifics of what one woman wants and what works in romancing or seducing one women might be very different from another woman. My advice in this case (if he has considered everything, both of them are free, and he does want to go ahead) is much as it would be in general:



Be on your best, most mature behavior. You want her to see you as a man, not as a little boy.

Make an effort to be as presentable as possible.

Spend time with her pay attention to her, and what it is that she needs and wants. Show her you love, respect, and appreciate her.

Do things for her to make her life less stressful, such as chores around the home and running errands. Make it a point to thank her for the things she does.

Compliment her, especially on things a boyfriend might (what she’s wearing, how she’s looking, her smile, her laugh, her sense of humor).

Send her gifts/flowers for those special days, or even when it isn’t a special day, “just to say thanks and I love you.”

Take her on dates. They don’t have to be expensive; they can be something like a sunset picnic. Wine and dine her (forget the wine if she has a drinking problem). It can be helpful to get out of town for the weekend to someplace where people don’t know you, especially a place where couples go. Longer vacations can also be a catalyst.

Be there when she comes home from work and surpise her by preparing a warm bubble bath for her complete with wine (non-alcoholic if she has a drinking problem), candles, romantic/relaxing music. Tell her you’ll give her a massage after the bath. (You can read up on giving good massages.) Let her know she doesn't have to worry about dinner (prepare or buy something you know she enjoys).

Try to ascertain her openness to being with younger men in general, or with you by giving her the ability to reveal her desire or curiousity – and/or give her hints about your feelings - in a nonjudgmental setting that allows some deniability. This can be tricky, but what I mean by that is incrementalism, open-ended questions, double entendres, compliments, jokes, and “hypotheticals” can be helpful. For example, without giving away the identity, tell her how nice it is that someone you know is in love, then tell her cautiously that it is with an older woman, and then tell her cautiously that it is his mother, and talk about how it is working well for them. If the very idea obviously thoroughly disgusts her, you’ll have your answer, at least for now. But if she only expresses half-hearted objection or expresses anything more positive than that, you’ll know she is at least open-minded.

Show her you are a reliable, trustworthy person who can keep her confidence. There is a lot of prejudice towards this kind of thing and you don’t want her to worry that others will find out before she’s ready for them to know – which might be never.

Above all, as with any advance, be prepared to accept rejection and never disrespect, harass, or try to coerce.  In situations like this, an initial rejection might be reversed if you handle the rejection the right way. Sometimes, someone just needs a little time to think about it.

As always, if anyone else has experience with situations like this (or even if you don't) I'm happy to get comments.

Abuse and Consanguineous Sex in Japan

This article by Lloyd DeMause has disturbing information about the sexual abuse of children in Japan by family members are others. I condemn nonconsensual sex, and in most circumstances, someone under a certain age can’t truly consent to someone is significantly older, or to someone who is their legal guardian.

However, there was some information about sexuality that isn’t experienced under such horrid conditions.

One of the most endogenous societies in the world, Japan has approved of incestuous marriages in court circles even in historical times. Preferred sibling, cousin, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages have been so extensive that genetics experts have discovered that the inbreeding has affected their size and health.

Traditional marriage?

One indication of what is likely to be found is a 1959 study by Kubo showing that there were still rural areas in Japan where fathers married their daughters when the mother had died or was incapacitated, “in accordance with feudal family traditions. Kubo concluded that incest was considered “praiseworthy conduct” in many traditional rural families. In the 36 incest cases he studied in Hiroshima, he found that there was often community moral disapproval of the families who lived in open incestuous marriages, but that the participants themselves did not think of it as immoral. In fact, when the father was unavailable to head the family, his son often took over his role and had sex with his sister in order “to end confusion in the order of the home.” Other members of the family accepted this incest as normal.

I’ll never think of the song “Turning Japanese” the same way again.

The most commonly reported incest occurs when the mother sees her son masturbate as a teenager and tells him, “It’s not good to do it alone. Your IQ becomes lower. I will help you,” or “You cannot study if you cannot have sex. You may use my body,” or “I don’t want you to get into trouble with a girl. Have sex with me instead.” The researchers found that Japanese mothers and sons often sleep in the same bed and have sex together, although the exact incidence in the population was not investigated.

“Teenager” is a wide-ranging term. A nineteen year-old is not a thirteen year-old. So the above practice can be abusive or it can be positive, depending on the age.

According to the phone interviews, Japanese mothers teach their sons how to masturbate helping them to achieve first ejaculation in much the same manner as they earlier helped them with toilet training.

I didn’t need any help from anyone to learn to masturbate. I’m thinking Japanese boys are no different in that respect. I’m sure they can figure it out.

Parents, older siblings, aunts, uncles, and grandparents should never abuse or take advantage of their children or pimp them out. Death is too good for such people. But siblings who are close in age, or a nineteen-year-old son or daughter and parent can have positive, loving, consensual sex, and should not be attacked for doing so; they should be allowed to marry if that’s what they choose. A clear distinction needs to be made between abuse and consensual sex.

Poll on Consangs

The blog Non Compos Mentis polled readers about consanguineous sexual relationships. I offer my responses. Go and offer yours, if you'd like, or leave them as a comment here.

If anyone still reads this blog, please let me know your views on incest. Do you think incestuous relationships should be criminalised?

Consensual sex should not be criminalized, regardless of the number, gender, or relation of participants. As such, any such sex that falls under the definition of “incest” should be legal. Incest that falls under the definition of rape, sexual assault, or child molestation should be illegal because it falls into a nonconsensual category, not because it is incest.

Do you think incestuous couples should be allowed to spawn offspring?

It should not be up to the law to decide who can have children and who can’t, unless we’re talking about child abusers.

What motivates your stand?

Kindness, fairness, respect for liberty, equality, and rights.

Would you forcibly perform vasectomy and/or ligation on an incestuous couple?

Of course not; at least not for the reason that they are incestuous. I would do it if they were child molesters.

Would you make it legally mandatory that pregnant females involved in incestuous relationships undergo abortion procedures?

See above.

If your answer is yes to the previous two questions, how would you punish any couple who disobeys the state's orders?

Not applicable.

This is what other people said…

Sexual activity should not be denied to any consenting person.

Thank you.

The age of consent in the United States varies fro state to state and should be nationally placed at fourteen years of age.

I haven’t thought a lot about this. My knee-jerk reaction is a “no.”

I think the age of consent should be the same as whatever age parents/guardians can no longer be held responsible for them. So if someone lived where the age of consent was 18 but became emancipated at 16, they should have their rights to sex, love, and marriage. Most fourteen-year-olds aren't ready for responsible sex, and perhaps law enforcement should at least have the option of prosecuting, say, a person of age fifty who pressures a fourteen year old into sex. It should be on a case by case basis, though, not an automatic prosecution just because it can be proven the experience did happen. It would have to be a negative situation that didn't quite fit the definition of general rape or sexual assault, but it could be prosecuted as sex with a minor.

Sex Week at College

The author of this piece calls for a more restrictive, narrow, confining approach to Sex Week at colleges.

Sex-toy raffles and giveaways? Workshops featuring graphic, violent pornography and simulated sex techniques? Teaching about polyamory but not about monogamy or abstinence?

Oh no! Polyamory? You mean like how some consenting adults get what they need in a way other than monogamy? We can’t let anyone know about that, no. Seriously, monogamy and abstinence should be talked about as well. I’m sure if someone wanted to speak about those things, they wouldn’t be prevented.

I don’t see what the objection is to any of the other things. “graphic, violent pornography” is not my thing, but if someone wants to put BDSM on video and someone wants to watch it, why should anyone else care? Or are we just talking about spanking? Are “violent” images only okay if nobody is having sex?

The events, billed as educational, used the universities' names and facilities. They were open to everyone, including the outside community.

Is this a complaint about generosity? If they were restricted, I think the writer might cite that as nefarious, too.

Sex-industry representatives were significantly involved in many of the programs and sponsorships, along with contributions from nonprofit groups such as the Kinsey Institute and Planned Parenthood.

And…?

Judging from the program descriptions, the emphasis of most Sex Week programming seems to be more on providing entertainment and promoting pleasure, rather than teaching students about sexual health and safety. While some sessions covered topics like women's health and sex trafficking, others featured such offerings as pornographic-film screenings; a lingerie show using college students as models; and a topless porn star demonstrating bondage, discipline, dominance, and submission to a student audience.

And the problem is…?

Similar programs are appearing on other campuses as well. In April, a "vayjayducation" workshop at Harvard featured a raffle for $1,000 worth of donated sex toys and the showing of a graphic film clip of a woman's genitals.

Oh, heavens no. There might be one or two people who have never seen such things. They shouldn’t be allowed to. It might, uh, might… well I’m sure the result would be disastrous.

Make no mistake about it—adult stores and sex-toy companies are actively seeking access to students through campus resources.

And this is different from other businesses… how?

Privacy is a grave matter of concern in other on-campus sex programming, too. Dozens of pictures of students, some posing with sex toys, are featured on the Facebook page of a frequent presenter at college sex workshops.

My guess is that the people in those pictures consented.

Even if the students gave permission at the time for their pictures to be taken or recorded, such stories and images can exist forever on the Internet, and years later can negatively affect students' chances of finding employment.

Sounds like we need employers to be more sex-positive and respectful of others.

The writer goes on to give a list of suggestions to try to make Sex Week less interesting.

Ideally, Sex Week should also include information on the right to love, sex, and marriage regardless of birth; about the realities of relationships that are interracial, intergenerational, same-sex, poly, or consanguineous.

Many Different Kinds of Poly

Even while unjust laws throughout much of the world continue to dictate monogamy in the legal sense, polyamory offers seemingly unlimited choices. Sure, legal marriage to more than one person isn’t possible in much of the world, but especially where people can live together, or share a room from time to time, or have dates in public, there is much ability to live a poly life.

It is helpful for a person to know what they want as far as living arrangements, dates, visits, sexual boundaries, contraception, protection, expectations, and so forth - and to discuss that with each person involved in each aspect. That will usually take some exploration and discovery.

An example of what I’m talking about is found here in Felicty’s “Polyamory My Way (First Draft)”

1. Every partner gets an equal voice. There are no partners that are “more special” than other partners. Period.

Other people have primaries, secondaries, and so forth, and are happy being the secondary for someone else.

2. No lies. This also means tell the whole truth, don’t just drip-feed as much “truth” as you think the other person can “handle”.

This is usually a must in poly situations. It avoids a lot of trouble.

Read the rest of her points. Most can be applied to monogamy and to other kinds of relationships, such as nonsexual friends, business partners, etc.

Whatever guidelines you find helpful, nobody else should be able to tell you what you can and can’t do. If you want marriage, you should be able to have it.