Defending Stephanie Seymour

Here’s an example of someone trashing the beautiful Stephanie Seymour for daring to be affectionate with her son in public. I’ll edit the quotes slightly to remove language that some people still get upset about.

One of the things that has me saying “Are you f------ stupid?” are the photos of Stephanie Seymour and her son.

She goes on…

The photos do look like she’s making out with her son. A little creepy…yes!

Why is that creepy?

Is it normal for a son to cop a feel of the boobies?

For some people, yes. Jealous?

Turns out her son is gay. Which apparently makes it ok to make out with your hot Mom on a beach.

It’s okay for any adult to be affectionate with any consenting adult on a beach. It should certainly be legal.

My question is, “Are you f------ stupid?”

Maybe they were simply having some minimal affection. Or maybe it is a sign of more. What’s the problem? What’s stupid is trashing others for sharing love and affection.

I have to admit, I’m vey curious to hear your thoughts on the pics.

My thought is that it is too bad that everyone can’t be on such good terms with their parent or child.

Open Relationships and Love

Love Destiny asks...

What I want to know is can two people who are together and in an open relationship REALLY love each other? Are they as in love and comitted as monogomous people? Or are they just really close friends with benefits?

Most of the answers I saw were hateful or ignorant…

“no”

“there are all sorts of neurotic love relationships”

If people in a relationship decide that at least one of them is available for some additional form of relationship or sex with someone else because that is what best meets their needs why is that neurotic?

“i think when your truely in love, theres only one person you WANT to be with”

Monogamy isn’t what works for everybody. In fact, it appears to work for only a minority of people.

“No they are not. Someone who is not willing to give you the full attention you deserve can not possibly be truly in love. A person who needs the attention of others in a relationship is just plain too selfish to actually feel love for someone else.”

Where does this come from? It is arbitrary.

At least there was some more friendly responses.

some couples choose to have open relationships who have been together 20, 30 years etc… they cant bare to seperate but no longer have a healthy sex life with each other so they have an open relationship

That is one situation. There are also people who do have a healthy sex life with each other, and they decide to have an open relationship.

jryanwinterhaven wrote a long comment…

Contrary to the opinion of most of the commenter’s here who clearly have had little or no exposure to people who are in open relationships the answer is,Yes, people who are in open relationships can love each other and do. There are all kinds of open relationships out there that have different rules just as monogamous relationship have rules to guide them.

Thank you.

Of those in “Open Relationships,” those who describe themselves as Polyamorous, as I do, means that they have a emotionally loving relationship with more than one partner. A subset of this is Polyfidelity (as I consider myself) that has made a long-term loving commitment amongst their partners (something akin to a marriage – though not in the same manner as our culture would see it). Love and commitment is essential to this type of Open relationship”. With others it may or may not rise to the level of love, but there is a relationship that is somewhere on the scale between friends and loves.

It is always good to see people stand up to ingnorance and hate and give a thorough explanation. Not only do many of the people in open relationships love each other, in some cases the love some people have for each other is one of the reasons why their relationship is open in the first place. Chew on that.

Lasting Polyamory

Scarlet asked for opinions on polyamory. She got a good answer from Chances6...

I've been in a committed, triad polyamorous relationship for 17 years now. It's not at all that I have two "wives." It's more correct to say my wife has a husband and a wife.

It's certainly not for everyone (but then, neither is a monogamous relationship!), but we've all found it to be really wonderful and fulfilling and healthy and comforting.

17 years. That's longer than so many monogamous marriages these days. Shouldn't these people have the freedom to marry?

A Hypothetical About Consanguineous Sex

The Stig Mommy asked “What Would You Do?” Here’s the situation.

You meet your DH [Dear Husband], date for years, are madly in love and get married. You have four beautiful, smart, and healthy children. Your marriage is still strong after 15 years.

15 Years into your marriage you somehow discover that your DH’s father (who has passed away) had an affair and a love child from a disclosure by your MIL [Mother-In-Law]. The name of the other woman strikes a chord with you but you cannot remember where from. Weeks later it is still bugging you so you go digging. Turns out this woman is listed as your birth mother on your adoption papers. She too has passed away before you ever got a chance to meet her. You match the timelines up and it turns out YOU are that love child. Surprised

WWYD??

Tell your husband that you are actually brother and sister? Would you get a divorce? Stay together? What would you tell the kids? Or would you keep the whole thing a secret and sweep it under the rug? Please explain your reasoning.

So what would you do, dear reader?

I’m a male and not gay, so if I was a husband who had discovered this truth about my wife (that we were half-siblings) I would tell her only if I thought it would make her happier or have no effect. I would not tell her somethng like this if it would upset her, seeing that she could not do anything about it. But I wouldn’t be married to a woman who is grossed out by the very idea of consanguineous sex, and I’m sure she wouldn’t want to be married to me. So most likely, I would tell her. Nobody else necessarily needs to know. Notice that the children in this hypothetical are healthy.

What if you had to live with it as an open secret? As in everyone know that you are brother and sister and decided to stay married.

The problem there would be bigotry. But I would challenge the gossips to explain exactly what the problem is. It would provide many teachable moments, showing that such marriages can be lasting and happy.

Most respondents, by far, chose “Stay married but tell only DH the truth”.

There were a lot of comments.

Grinberga…

I would throw up..for weeks.

I understand that some people are turned off by certain things. For example, most heterosexual men do not care to think at all about male-on-male sex, and may even be grossed out by the idea. I understand that some people have that reaction when it comes to consanguineous sex. But wouldn’t the life and happiness built together mitigate that?

Amy1352…

You know, I would honestly tell my husband and then we'd probably sweep it under the rug. I don't think I would tell my kids at all.

Then I'd go into therapy.

Therapy? Why? To get over new negative feelings? Certainly not to get over having a great marriage.

MetaIMama…

I would divorce but remain friends, no reason to not have ANY relationship. I just couldn't live with the fact that I was married to my own brother.

Sad.

Skipper13…

I would keep it a secret, but I also would probably get a divorce. We can stay friends and parent the children, but I do not know that I could be comfortable being romantic with him ever again, that kind of ruins it for me.

Why? Think of it as finding out that something happened your husband when he was so young that he didn’t remember it. You find this thing to be a turn off. Would you really break up a good marriage over it?

The Stig Mommy checks back in…

DH says its way to gross and he would divorce.

That’s sad. She’d still be the same person he married.

emilysmom110405...

I actually know of a similar thing happening IRL. In this case, they were young adults (early 20s) and were not married, but were dating and the girl got pregnant. Her father passed away soon after she discovered her pregnancy. That's when all the family secrets came out. The boyfriend was either the son of her father or her father's father (could have been either as his mother was sleeping with both of them).

Interesting.

Buttercup+4…

The horse is already out of the barn. The four kids are born, and they are fine. . So there is no issue. .

I wouldn't care if I found out my husband was my fraternal twin and we were separated at birth.

There is true love.

Mommy_Pix…

After 15 yrs and four children, you have pretty much run the gamut, the only thing left is the empty nest/retirement. Why throw that away because of something you've found out AFTER all of that?

Yes.

How about you, dear reader? What would YOU do?

Mother and Son Affectionate, Bigots Freak Out

The gossip media is abuzz talking about supermodel Stephanie Seymour and her 18-year-old son Peter Brant II. Why? There are pictures of them enjoying some time together (with others) in the surf, including pictures of them embracing, kissing, holding hands. In some of the pictures, Brant’s hand is on the side of his mother’s swimsuit-clad breast as they hug. There is also speculation about whether Brant’s body is showing a sexual a reaction. Of course, at that age, that can happen for no reason at all.

There is nothing wrong with any of this. Shame on anyone who would try to discourage affection between a parent and adult child. What’s in the pictures could be the extent of their physical affection. Or maybe there is more. But that is between them, and I think a lot of people are jealous either way, as they are both attractive people, and some people wish they had even the most minimal contact with their parents or children. Do not tear down others for having a warm relationship.

Salon.com recaps some of the buzz.

A supermodel in a bikini kissing a hot guy is surefire tabloid fodder -- but a supermodel in a bikini kissing her son? That is pure, creepy gold.

Creepy? Yes, the bigots seem to think so.

Does it matter that Seymour, who recently reconciled with estranged husband Peter Brant, was on vacation with her whole family at the time? Does it matter that the photos were clearly taken in rapid succession, from at least two different angles, suggesting that what might appear a languorous caress was instead a brief embrace? Does it matter, further, that Peter Jr. is openly gay?

It doesn’t matter to the gossips. Some of the people commenting on the coverage probably think that a man who is strictly gay can be "turned" by the "right" woman. The writer shows intelligence…

But how many random news sites or commenters on them could confidently recognize familial warmth if they saw it? Maybe the idea that a teenage child would still even want to put an arm around his mother, would offer an unsolicited kiss, is so rare as to be downright odd. But that doesn't automatically make it weird or gross or creepy. And as any mother with a rapidly growing up child knows, it might even make it enviable.

It isn’t weird or gross or creepy either way. If it isn’t for you, that’s fine. Don’t begrudge others affection and love. Check out the pictures for yourself. They are quite nice.

Consanguineous Sex Leads to Chaos?

Concerned about what David Epstein was doing in private with another consenting adult, this blogger tries to convince us that the freedom to consanguineous love and sex will lead to chaos. He cites Thomas Aquinas, so I was expecting something deep. But maybe something was lost in translation?

In the Summa Theologica (II-II, Q. 154, A. 9), Thomas Aquinas gives four reasons why incest is contrary to reason. First, “because man naturally owes a certain respect to his parents and therefore to his other blood relations”; this respect can no longer exist once the relationship becomes incestuous.

You can’t respect someone with whom you are having sex? That doesn’t bode well for marriage or any relationship at all, does it? I wonder if this blogger is in a relationship, and how the other person feels about that?

Second, since blood relations “live in close touch with one another... opportunities of venereal intercourse would be very frequent and thus men's minds would be enervated by lust.”

Oh no, they might have sex a lot? Men (and quite a few women) think about sex all of the time, no matter where they are.

Third, by marrying someone to whom one is not related, one thereby gains friendships with one's wife's kin; this would be frustrated if one did not marry outside one's family.

I have many friends outside of my family to whom I’m neither married nor married to a relative of theirs.

And fourth, courtesy of Aristotle, a man will have a liking for his kinswoman; it is not good for this affection to become too ardent, which would occur if he had sexual relations with her.

It isn’t good to care about your relatives so much? These objections make it sound like sex is a horrible experience. I have to wonder if those who oppose equality are frustrated.

Moreover the bond between a husband and wife is substantially different from that formed between mother and son or father and daughter. Incest irrevocably distorts this bond, to the detriment of the family, and, by extension, society.

This is like saying best friends should never get married, because it would distort the friendship. When people are functioning socially in their biological roles, sex would create an additional bond. For some who are not functioning socially in those roles (as is often the case when someone was adopted and raised by loving parents, and he later meets his birth mother), that bond may not exist in the first place.

What have we learned? Sex is disrespectful and a chore. You can only make friends through marriage. You should not care about your family members so much. Do not have more than one dimension to your relationships. Funny, but that all sounds like it is much more likely to create chaos than two adults having the freedom to be happy together.

It isn’t like those of us who want full marriage equality insist that everyone should enjoy consanguineous sex. We simply want those who do to have the same freedom as anyone else; to be able to love the person(s) they do without being prosecuted or denied equality.

Why Monogamy and Not Polyamory?

guitarpickup asked "Why are you monogamous and/or opposed to polyamory?" What followed was quite an interesting discussion. Go check it out.

Here are some things I noticed...

1. People cite a dislike of a certain thing, but that thing also happens in monogamous relationships, or relationships that are thought by one partner to be monogamous.

2. Some people admit their monogamy was due to jealousy or not wanting to share.

3. Some people say they aren't against exploring polyamory, but they know their current partner wouldn't stay with them if they did.

I am monogamous because my wife prefers it.

I am not opposed to polyamory. It rarely works to everyone's satisfaction, but I see no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to try.

Thank you, ally.

It is an interesting discussion.

The law should allow people to make their own choices, whether living alone, celibate, monogamous, polyamorous, or polygamous, or whatever. They shouldn't have to justify it to others. Just because I support the polygmous freedom to marry does not mean I'm against monogamy; no more than my support for the freedom to same-sex marriage means I'm against heterosexual marriage.

Some People Actually Enjoy Sex

In his blog entry and subsequent comments, C.J. appears to claim that legal adults aren’t really adults until age 30, so they can’t possibly consent to sex with a parent before then. What’s more is that sex is a bad thing most of the time, apparently.

Epstein's daughter no more "consented" to her father's attentions than a child "consents" to his soccer coach's attentions. One of the most difficult aspects of post-molestation therapy is helping the survivor overcome his or her guilt. Children--and make no mistake, teenagers are still children--are relatively easy to coerce.

We hold adults responsible for their actions, whether they are 18, 21, or 35.

Likewise, incest is a crime perpetrated on the individual, that damages the individual.

I wonder if people who use these arguments can only enjoy sex if they are the same age or older than their sex partner? Their arguments seem to be based on an assumption that the adult child is getting no enjoyment or benefit out of the relationship, or that if they think they are, that adult child must have some form of reduced capacity.

Carla asked in the comments…

What is your opinion of sibling incest then? I wasn't necessarily thinking of the legality; I was curious about your personal moral opinion of it. You mention that there's a problem with it - what is that?

C. J. replied…

My personal moral problem with it is that it represents a betrayal of trust.

Again, I get the impression that these people think sex is generally abusive and about betraying other people.

First, the confusion of roles and relationships involved is highly damaging to both parties.

Some siblings disagree with you. They have found that becoming lovers has made their lives better. They don’t have a confusion of roles, they have additional roles.

How, after engaging in an incestuous relationship with a sibling, is this person supposed to move forward and have a normal life?

The same way someone has a normal life after the end of any sexual relationship.

In the cases I've read, post-incest survivors reported having an extremely difficult time forming attachments to other people, and an almost impossible time enjoying sex.

There are people who claim that any sex someone had with someone they are no longer having sex with hinders that person’s ability to form attachments and enjoy sex. It is one of the main reasons given by monogamy proponents who say that nobody should have sex outside of a monogamous marriage. Shall we make all sex outside of marriage illegal? Outlaw remarriage?

But there are people who say that after having a sexual relationship with their sibling, nothing else can compare. So it would have been better that they never had that great experience? That’s a rather lousy way to live life, if you say people shouldn’t do things unless they can be assured that they will always be able to have things that good.

Moreover, I feel like, in a family structure where there are no taboos, how do you teach that abuse is wrong?

Who said there were no taboos? Here’s what we should teach other other: Don’t do things against another person’s will, like hitting them or touching them.

How do you even define abuse?

It really isn’t that hard. An adult having sex with, raping, or fondling a minor is abuse. A much older minor having sex with, raping, or fondling a minor is abuse. Beating someone else is generally abuse. Like that.

It seems to me that the potential for domestic violence is much greater.

Huh? Why, do you beat your lover, or would you beat your family member if you were having sex with them?

Also, once the relationship starts, how does it end?

The same way any other relationship ends. Or it doesn’t end. There are family members who go into business together, and a lot of new businesses fail. A lot of sexual relationships end. Should it be illegal for family members to go into business together?

Then, of course, the question is, what happened in these kids' early lives to cause them to be attracted to each other?

People used to ask that about LGBT people, too. That you don’t understand why someone is attracted to someone else does not mean that anyone else has a problem.

Really, we get it. You’re not attracted to anyone in your family. Or if you are, you don’t want us to know it, and you think it would be a bad idea to act on it. Fine. You don’t have to.

Hate Adds Pain to Genetic Sexual Attration and GSA Relationships

Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA) is a condition that may be experienced when close genetic relatives who have been separated for significant amounts of time, often since birth or before puberty, are reunited. It describes an intense physical or emotional attraction, and may include sexual attraction or be expressed through sex. The attraction may or may not be mutual. Even if mutual, not all GSA results in sexual contact. (Some people prefer the term "Genetic Attraction.")

Reading accounts or watching documentaries about those struggling with GSA feelings or related actions can be heartbreaking. There are many reasons as to why.

First of all, there are all of the problems that come with any attraction or any relationship. One person is attracted to someone else and that attraction is not mutual, or is mutual only for period of time. Relationships involve at least two different people who are trying to get along with each other and to deal with those outside the relationship as well. This can all be increased when the individuals are biologically related.

This new attraction and resulting relationship can bring change, disruption, and uncertaintly to someone’s life, which is again something that may happen in general relationships as well, but can be more of an issue with biological relatives and the strong pull of GSA. This is especially a problem when someone has made a life and perhaps has existing vows with someone else. For example, a married, monogamous woman who gets in contact with a biological half-brother and finds herself strongly attracted to him and wanting to spend time with him, with or without sex. The time and attention taken from her marriage may be enough of a problem, but add sexual cheating to the mix, and it is even worse. She may love and value her husband, but feels this intense connection or draw to her half-brother that must be suppressed if she wants to have a chance to save her marriage. In that case, either choice is painful. Or what if she doesn’t want to save her marriage? What if it was dying before the GSA issue surfaced? Divorce is usually a painful experience anyway.

Some people experiencing GSA are disturbed by their feelings (or the feelings of their relative) because they feel a need to have that person in their life as a sibling, a parent, or a child, and they see sexual attraction or sex as incompatible with that role. They may feel like they finally had something they were missing for so long, only to have it taken away by unexpected or unwanted feelings and resulting tensions. Just the unfamiliar nature of these feelings may be bothersome.

In addition to all of the usual problems someone with an unrequited attraction or a mutual attraction between people can bring, one that is different with GSA is, of course, the legal, familial, social, and religious prohibitions imposed against sex with and marriage to close relatives. Incest between consenting adults is still criminalized in many places, including most US states, and bigotry against people in such relationships or experiencing such attraction continues to be perpetuated, sometimes in the most hateful and harmful ways.

This is sometimes compounded by a lack of solidarity. Even if there is a GSA relationship that didn’t break up any existing families, marriages, or relationships, and the individuals are happy together and able to share their lives in a functional way despite legal and social challenges, they may be rebuffed or judged when they reach out for understanding and support from others. Other people experiencing GSA who have decided not to have sexual relationship or have ended a sexual relationship or want to end their sexual relationship may disapprove of those who want to engage in or continue their sexual relationship. Or, if the GSA relationship is intergenerational, interracial [biracial with non-biracial], same-sex, or polyamorous, other people experiencing GSA may express disapproval based on one of those factors (in addition to all of the other people who disapprove based on those factors). Finally, those who have recently struggled or are still struggling for their own freedom to marry or just the basic freedom of association, such as LGBT people or poly people, may express contempt for consanguineous sex and love, including in cases where GSA is factor, or may be unsupportive of those in GSA relationships gaining the freedom to marry. Thus, instead of finding comfort from those who have also been targeted by those who want to control the sexuality of other adults, people experiencing GSA may find some more vitriol or at least a cold shoulder.

All of these things can bring pain and hardship to GSA relationships. Laws and public attitudes can be changed. There is some help for those struggling to deal with their feelings or the feelings of someone else or just to be themselves, but that help would be greatly aided by a change in the laws and public attitudes. That is one reason I call for solidarity. Someone who is struggling with GSA does not need the added burden of laws and finger-wavers that treat them as second-class citizens or with hate and impede their ability to make decisions in the best interest of themselves and their loved ones.

[Edited for typing errors and clarity.]

More Musings Prompted by David Epstein Case

Doug Mataconis takes a look at the legal issues raised by the David Epstein case, especially in light of Lawrence vs. Texas.

What it does mean, however, is that just because we don’t like something doesn’t mean it should be illegal, and that I cannot think of any good reason why Professor David Epstein should go to jail.

Thank you.

A psychoanalyst writes…

There is almost no way to construct a rational, legally based morality that forbids incest between adults. Most of us have a visceral reaction of disgust when we think about incest because the taboos are so deeply ingrained but the incest taboo can not be supported by rational argument alone.

But the writer tries to come up with a reason that consanguineous sex is wrong for everyone…

In parent-child incest the difference between generations is denied and the significance of the primal ties between parent and child are denied.

The difference between generations is denied? No more so that any other intergenerational sex between adults. Those relationships are not illegal and are widely accepted, and so this can’t be a reason to have laws against consanguineous sex.

Parents and adult children are not legally obligated to have any ties. Ever hear of estrangement? Disinheritance? Also, I don’t think most people in these relationships deny their “primal ties.” Most are very aware of such ties.

Objections like these don’t even deal with the fact that laws are written in such a way that siblings, uncles/aunts and nephews/nieces can also be prosecuted for consensual sex.

What exactly is the offending behavior? What if a woman who was adopted as a newborn finds her birth father and pursues a relationship with him? It is okay for them to kiss each other on the cheek? The lips? It is okay for one to massage the other and touch every part of the other’s body except the genitals? Is it okay for them to live together and take care of each other? What exactly is wrong and should be illegal, and why? Those who want to deny others their rights to love, sex, and marriage don’t seem to give details, but they should have to justify and clarify why, exactly, they want to prevent other people from doing what they want to do with each other. They often cite “inbreeding,” but that is only possible with heterosexual intercourse and carrying a fetus to term. What about consanguineous same-sex relationships? Birth control? All of the other kinds of sex that aren’t intercourse? Are those wrong and justly outlawed just because the lovers are related?

Others May Consent to Something You Wouldn't

“Anonymous” left a comment on the post "Bigotry Expressed.” My response is below.

Thank you, Anonymous, for your thoughtful consideration and for comment.

I do not think she makes a good argument, because she expresses blanket certainty about diverse things about which she could not possibly be certain. There are adult children who are emphatic that they freely consent to have sex with a parent, some of whom claim to be the initiator, and others who would like to, but haven’t. It is their experienced word against her inexperienced word. Has she interviewed everyone involved and performed careful psychological analysis of each case?

If she had said that some apparently consensual cases could be the result of selfish grooming on the part of a parent, and explained that dynamic, then she would have a good argument.

“It seems pretty reasonable to presume that if a parent is having sex with their child, even an adult child, that the parent groomed the child into the sexual relationship.”

That may be reasonable to presume in some cases, but is a presumption that may or may not turn out to be true. Let’s assume the parent was a primary custodial parent. Is it impossible that a child could grow up having a healthy relationship with that parent, and after getting out of the home for college, the military, or any other form of establishing themselves, that adult child realizes that they have a sexual attraction to their parent? I do not think that is impossible. In addition, consider when the parent did not have primary custody or any custody, as is the case in so many Genetic Sexual Attraction cases.

It used to be widely agreed that it was reasonable to presume that someone who was attracted to someone of the same sex, which was classified as a disorder, must have those feelings as a result of flawed parenting, or a molestation or grooming. The truth is, people have a wide variety of attractions. You probably have some friends who have been attracted to someone and you can’t for the life of you figure out why. Likewise, some people are not attracted to their own parent and do not understand why someone else would be attracted to her own parent.

“It follows then that the law should prohibit incest to make sure that parents aren't grooming their children into a sexual relationship.”

It does not follow. There are mechanisms in place that could be used, especially if enhanced, to protect minor children from deficient parenting. I do believe that the job of a parent is to raise their minor child to be independent adults who only depend on others as a result of consent, usually for mutual benefit, support, or emotional fulfillment. But it is possible for a parent to do that and have the child become an adult and freely consent to sex with that parent. I strongly condemn child abuse. I would consider grooming a minor child to be your sexual partner to be child abuse. The crime should be in the grooming, not in any consensual sex adults have. If you want to write a new law for that one because you don't think existing child abuse laws suffice, go ahead.

There are many reasons a person, including that adult child, will have sex. Some are better than others. The question is legality. I would not advise someone else to have sex for each of the following reasons, but I would not want most of them to be illegal…

1. To bring physical or emotional pleasure to someone else
2. To express love/affection for/bond with another person
3. As a form of recreation or celebration
4. Religious ritual/command (do not withhold yourself from your spouse, etc.)
5. As a form of exercise or therapy
6. To reproduce
7. To satisfy curiosity, a desire, an urge
8. To gain or keep someone else’s attention
9. For ego/conquest
10. To emotionally hurt or anger someone else
11. To gain advantage/information
12. For compensation/trade
13. To infect someone else with a sexually transmitted disease without their consent

That’s not an exhaustive list and and there is some overlap, but out of all of those, the only ones that should be criminal are 13 and perhaps 12. #12 is illegal in many places, especially if the compensation is in the form of cash, but it is not currently the focus of this blog to argue about prostitution laws. An adult daughter (or son) may consent to or pursue sex with a parent primarily for the second reason, and that isn’t wrong if it doesn’t break existing vows to others and shouldn’t be illegal. I would say doing it for #10 would be wrong, but shouldn’t be illegal.

“But, I would ask you if at least some incestuous relationships are wrong?”

Any incestuous relationship involving nonconsent (which includes “consenting” minor children being used by adults) is wrong and should be illegal. Other relationships, including adult incestuous ones, may or may not be wrong. Some people consider a 20-something man and a 40-something woman wrong, or a woman and two men, or someone of Asian ancestry with someone of European ancestry, or a Buddhist and a Christian, or two people who bicker constantly as relationships that are wrong. Should any of them be criminal? No. As long as they are consenting adults, it should not be criminal. Do some people make better decisions than others? Yes. People consent to do all sorts of things they later regret. Doesn’t mean it should be illegal. If you can make a case that a specific 20-something woman is mentally ill or deficient to the point of not being able to consent and that the other person should have been aware of this, then that should be criminal (and the 20-something should have a legal guardian). But that would apply to anyone having sex with her, not just a close relative.

Something else that comes to mind is S&M. If you handcuff a nonconsenting stranger or a child for any reason other than law enforcement or self-defense, you are doing something that should be criminally wrong. But is it wrong to handcuff your consenting lover? Of course not. “Handcuffing” and “incest” are descriptions of behaviors, but those behaviors can be right or wrong. They should only be illegal when there is a lack of consent.

Sex, Love, and Relationships

Natja's Natterings provides this good word...

As emotionally confusing it is when someone rejects the political/social labels of ‘Bisexual, sexually fluid, queer or pansexual’ whether this decision is made because of ingrained self hatred, strict religious codes in their community or fear of homophobia by ‘coming out’ there something a bit worse than not accepting who or what you are, this is about not recognising the limits to your sexuality and how it might effect others around you.

Our laws should allow people to be true to themselves as long as the innocent aren't harmed. That is the only way they can be true to others.

Read the entire thing, which is mostly about being sexually polyamorous in a triad, but not necessarily having both partners maintaining a relationship with the unicorn.

David Epstein Case Brings Out the Ignorance

Here’s a piece by Heather Muse on the David Epstein case. You know it isn’t going to be good when the title includes “Yeeeechh.”

The case brings the idea of "consensual incest" back into the spotlight. Last year, actress Mackenzie Phillips discussed her relationship with her late father, John Phillips, in her memoir, "High on Arrival," and introduced us to the term.

Really? This writer had never heard of consensual incest before? Next she’ll ask what a “ho…mo…sexual” is, or what a “marital aid” is.

The slightly-less-squicky term for consensual incestuous relationships is "genetic sexual attraction," and there are several sites on the Internet dedicated to discussing this taboo.

Actually, GSA is usually used to describe a sexual or physical attraction between biologically related people who are reunited after one or both of them matures. For example, a father and daughter relationship in which the daughter was raised by someone else with little or no contact with her father, or a brother and sister who did not grow up together. One or both may experience GSA. This attraction may or may not result in sex. Consanguineous sex, or “consensual incest,” also happens between close relatives who were not separated for such a length of time. Sometimes it is experimentation, such as between minor siblings who end up moving on and living seperate lives with others. Sometimes it is something more and results in lasting marriage relationships (only it is usually without legal marriage equality.) Nonconsensual incest is rape, assault, or molestation, including when one person is too much younger than the other person to consent.

We wonder: Can anyone truly "consent" to having a sexual relationship with a parent or other older relative? The power differential seems too great.

There is a power differential in just about any relationship, sometimes an enormous power differential. One person is more emotionally needy than another. One earns more than the other. One is more educated than another. One has more friends and family than another. One has more life experience than other. On and on it goes. To question if consent is truly possible in these cases is insulting and demeaming. There are sober, functional, healthy people who consent to consanguineous sex with an older relative. It shouldn’t be illegal or questioned, unless you would do the same to any intergenerational relationship between adults.

I can understand why someone would never want to have this level of relationship with a close relative, and I can understand why someone would only ever want a monogamous relationship. But for them to take their personal feelings and desires and insist that nobody could really consent to a polyamorous or consanguineous relationship is so much prejudice, and why full marriage equality is currently denied.

A Happy Triad That Deserves Equality

I'd added another page. The triad who inspired this blog let me interview them.

Triad Featured in the News

This article in an Australian news source says “three is the new two” as it profiles a three people in a polyamorous relationship, using pseudonyms.

Mari (a 33-year-old student doing her second degree), Sara (a 32-year-old uni lecturer) and David (a 35-year-old IT geek) have been a sexually monogamous, three-way unit for six years.

They are not religious, they're not cult members and they're not even that into group sex.

They just happened to all fall in love with each other at roughly the same time.

For the most part, the Brisbane trio have kept the details of their polyamorous private life to themselves. But they are slowly coming out of the closet now.

Good for them. I hope they find acceptance.

Telling people about their super-sized relationship is complicated by a lack of unloaded language options. Threesome sounds too sexy and there is no triplicate version of the word couple.

Triad.

Polyamory, also known as ethical non-monogamy, is billed by many activists as the new gay; the next sexual revolution. It's separate from swinging, in that (as the Latin root suggests) emotion is involved. Its also very different to religious polygamy such as that portrayed on the HBO TV show Big Love.

In short: more than two people, more than just sex, God optional.

Books, blogs and academic research into the practice are all rising, as is the predictable outrage from traditionalists and even from some non-traditionalists who say the trend muddies the gay marriage debate.

Muddies? It’s great that more people are getting the freedom to marry, but we need full marriage equality. If consenting adults should be allowed to marry, why carve out a denial of that right when it comes to polamory, which is as ancient as people (or some other animals)? If Mari can marry Sara, or she can marry David, why can’t she marry both at the same time? It is that simple.

The article then goes on to the Canadian trial for a bit before explaining more about the featured family.

Relationship Diversity

At Asexual Curiosities, SlightlyMetaphysical wrote something that rang true with me…

I think polyamory and aromance have a lot to offer each other. And not in a theoretical, we can both learn things, kinda way. In a practical, “Hey, Poly, wanna hook up?” “Sure, Asexy, prepare to be cuddled harder than ever before” kinda way.

It seemed weird to me, first pondering this, that the answer to ‘I can’t have one romantic relationship’ would be ‘have several’. But there’s two very important points about polyamorous people.

Firstly, as a group, they’ve spent a lot of time thinking about relationships, figuring out why the relationship structure they saw around them didn’t work for them. They’re going to sympathise, if you can spin it right.

Secondly, they’re less keen on this idea that intimacy has to look a certain way, and all come from the same person. That means you’re more likely to get a tailor-made relationship with exactly the kind of intimacies you both want, and both of you having the freedom to look elsewhere to fulfil your remaining intimacies.

Friendships and romances can both be widely varied and may overlap. It is absurd that we have laws and toxic cultural restrictions that try to force everyone into the same mold. Let people find what they need, and don’t try to take it away from them.

Love is Love

At the GSA forum, wanttobeheld wrote of her consanguineous love…

I'm in the depths of emotional despair atm, but whilst preparing dinner tonight, I had a moment to reflect on meetings past with my father, and the things that attracted him to me.

So, in an attempt to brighten our collective moods, how about we post a few snippets about what it was that had you falling in love in your GA relationship ?

For me,
- our similar intellect and ability to converse on an intelligent level
- the similarities in our looks. Finally, someone who looked like me !
- the smell. I've said it before, but *nothing* compares to knowing that smell, and the sense of belonging it brought.
- the similarities in interests - from food, to career choices, to television shows, to movies, to, well, everything !
- the unconditional love. Having come from a less than loving adoptive family, knowing that my father loved me unconditionally was like having a warm blanket wrapped around me in my worst moments.

redwitch responded…

What attracted me to him?
Well..the smile..He looks absolutly nothing like me..He is tall, has deep grey eyes, dark straight hair..while my eyes are a boring brown, my hair curly, and it's colour changes with every season..so,his different looks is a big turn on for me..
His atitude.Totally different from mine.I like spontaneus, new things,living to the extreme.He is dependable,a shoulder to rely on, who if has something in his mind will stop at nothing to get it, and will fight to the very last breath if he wants something.
His smell..I have never in my life sensed something that smells so good.Mix chocklate and a bit of spice and bit of mint and you have his smell..If that's not addicting God knows what is.
His touch.He seems to know exactly where I want to be touched and how.Not sexual.Necceserilly.But hug if I need it,handholding if that, or kissing.
He has the habbit of holding me in his arms at night,and I always hated that,except when he did it.If that is not a sign I don't know what is

LostNTime…

Well, I would have to say at first it was his voice. His voice has this sound to it that viberates, and it gives me chills still. When we got closer it was his touch. The warmth that flooded me when he touched my arm,my hand, or had his are around me. Then his smell, oh my God his smell... he smells like hazelnut. Delicious. Then when our smells mingle, hazelnut, vanilla, and chocolate. When he looks at me, and his eyes are full of admiration, love, happiness, and passion. It amazes me. I love the way he's open with his feelings to me, and doesn't try to be tough. I see his fears, pain, and courage. I see his human side. I love him. Even when we're mad at each other, or when I second guess us, my thought is I don't want to live without him. I love him. I would have to say everything made me fall, and I never want to look back. He's my everything

I wanted post these quotes because it is important to see that these people are or were in love and it is wrong to harass them or deny their their rights to love, sex, and marriage, if that is what they want. Those who want to deny them those things should have to look them in the face and explain their cruel position.

Poly People Give Good Relationship Advice

Over at Polyamory Paradigm, there is some good advice about incorporating someone new into your life.

Don't cut corners.

It may be tempting to overlook things with that new relationship. Maybe you find out the person doesn't shower every day and it bugs you. Maybe they leave the sink full of dirty dishes which annoys you a bit. Don't make the mistake of overlooking those things just to facilitate the relationship. Those are the little things that can come back later and bite you. I'm not saying make a big deal or keep score or anything like that. In any relationship you always pick your battles. What I'm saying is don't dismiss them completely in the interest of merging your life with the new person.

This is true of any relationship, poly, monogamous, or whatever. You should not commit yourself beyond what you know and with what you are comfortable. Someone new can be exciting, but it is foolish to have sex, or move in, or make promises or demanding agreements too soon, and these thigns should not be done without being honest about each other, including in our own minds.

Don't terraform.

You know what that is right? The destruction of an existing environment for the purpose of creating a new one. (Yes, that is a rough definition, don't quote me). In other words, don't destroy your current life just to fit in the new person.

Again, this is good to apply to any relationship.

There is much more to consider in that writing, but you’ll have to go check it out for yourself.

It Is Normal

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Second Person Found Guilty in Consensual Relationship

More shame on Grant County, Wisconsin, where a case to two adults having consensual sex continues to he prosecuted. See my prior update on this.

A 20-year-old Platteville woman has been found guilty of incest.

Elizabeth Marie Roen was found guilty Wednesday in Grant County Circuit Court of having sexual intercourse with her 25-year-old brother, David Bisbach, at least 10 times in 2009 in the village of Blue River.

Again, why is this a crime?

Roen was sentenced to five years of probation, three months in jail with work release, and she must hold a full-time job or attend school, or make three job applications a week. She was placed on the sex offender registry and is not to have unsupervised visits with her brothers Chris or David.

Outrageous. Everyone involved in the prosecution and conviction should be ashamed of themselves. What consenting adults do in private should be nobody else's business.