Half Siblings Can Marry in Sweden

emmashore asked, “I've heard that half siblings are allowed to marry in sweden, provided they receive 'special approval'. Is this true???”

According to this map, yes. This law is better than in most places, but any consenting adult should be able to marry any other consenting adult and special approval should not be needed, unless everyone who gets married has to get special approval.

Swinglish...

Both [cousins, half siblings] are just weird....I should think any right minded person would agree.

emmashore…

LOL I totally agree, wasn't asking for personal reasons.. was asking out of disgust and shock.

Isn’t that cute? They can be friends and hate other people together.

Carl T …

I also note that the ban on sex/marriage between close relatives appears to mostly be based on the notion that it's disgusting. If it were based on the risk of birth defects, I would also expect there to be a blanket ban on sex for those with serious heritable diseases and old but pre-menopause women, or a ban on reproduction but not on sex and marriage, or at the very least the laws would be based on biological and not legal relatedness (though since 2004 there is a possibility for adopted whole siblings to be allowed to marry, with no mention of whether they could then legally have sex).

Correction to the above: I found a comment to the relevant law, which clarifies that only biological whole siblings can be guilty of "samlag med syskon" (intercourse with sibling).

He makes a point. We don’t have equality under the law if a reason used to deny marriage equality isn’t applied to other cases to also deny freedoms.

Jamtjim…

So, my thought is this: If we accept in a modern liberal society that two consenting adults can do whatever they want sexually so long as it doesn't hurt any third party, then is it right to have a law which prohibits genetic siblings from having sex with each other?

No, it isn’t.

Now I realise that peoples first thought may be of disgust, personally I find the notion of inter-sibling sex morally and ethically wrong, but then law should not be based on subjective morality. Some people regard homosexual acts as wrong morally, but yet society has learned to accept this as like I said before, if it is consensual, and nobody gets hurt then this is accepted. Similarly, certain people believe that all sex outside of marriage is ethically wrong. Again modern societies to do not uphold laws which forbid this either.

Right. Disapprove all you want, but don’t force your disapproval on the lives of others.

CathySky…

I think people who do this suffer from low self esteem or some other mental health issue.

And she bases this on…? The people I know are healthy, happy, well-adjusted people.

Shibumi…

Although incest is a universal taboo, this taboo is universally violated.

Yes. Nobody does it. Except that it happens all over the world. Let’s drop the charade.

As for the legal aspects, I think that there are already laws on the books that deal with the control, domination and abuse aspects often involved in incest cases. These should be enforced. If there is a victim, the victim should be protected and defended by society and the victimizer should be stopped and punished. As for the (I believe) much rarer cases where two completely consenting and able-minded adults who are closely related, wish to behave as a couple, I don't think a law is needed.

Not just couples.

If societal pressure does not prove to be enough to keep them apart, they are not actually harming anyone and the government/state/law representing "we the people" should not enter their bedroom. We can still think it is wrong and pass personal judgment on them and frown and shun them… within the limits of the law of course… but not everything most of us agree is "wrong" should be legislated.

Thank you!

Jamtjim…

Is it fair to discriminate against people in a non-abusive relationship simply because there are a larger number of abusive ones? It it fair to deny these people the right to engage in a totally consensual relationship solely because of the actions of other people?

No!

Is this not against the principles of a free liberal society?

Yes, it is.

Time and time again, we see that arguments against this freedom to marry are nothing more than personal distaste, not reasoned policy.

A Hypothetical About Consanguineous Sex

The Stig Mommy asked “What Would You Do?” Here’s the situation.

You meet your DH [Dear Husband], date for years, are madly in love and get married. You have four beautiful, smart, and healthy children. Your marriage is still strong after 15 years.

15 Years into your marriage you somehow discover that your DH’s father (who has passed away) had an affair and a love child from a disclosure by your MIL [Mother-In-Law]. The name of the other woman strikes a chord with you but you cannot remember where from. Weeks later it is still bugging you so you go digging. Turns out this woman is listed as your birth mother on your adoption papers. She too has passed away before you ever got a chance to meet her. You match the timelines up and it turns out YOU are that love child. Surprised

WWYD??

Tell your husband that you are actually brother and sister? Would you get a divorce? Stay together? What would you tell the kids? Or would you keep the whole thing a secret and sweep it under the rug? Please explain your reasoning.

So what would you do, dear reader?

I’m a male and not gay, so if I was a husband who had discovered this truth about my wife (that we were half-siblings) I would tell her only if I thought it would make her happier or have no effect. I would not tell her somethng like this if it would upset her, seeing that she could not do anything about it. But I wouldn’t be married to a woman who is grossed out by the very idea of consanguineous sex, and I’m sure she wouldn’t want to be married to me. So most likely, I would tell her. Nobody else necessarily needs to know. Notice that the children in this hypothetical are healthy.

What if you had to live with it as an open secret? As in everyone know that you are brother and sister and decided to stay married.

The problem there would be bigotry. But I would challenge the gossips to explain exactly what the problem is. It would provide many teachable moments, showing that such marriages can be lasting and happy.

Most respondents, by far, chose “Stay married but tell only DH the truth”.

There were a lot of comments.

Grinberga…

I would throw up..for weeks.

I understand that some people are turned off by certain things. For example, most heterosexual men do not care to think at all about male-on-male sex, and may even be grossed out by the idea. I understand that some people have that reaction when it comes to consanguineous sex. But wouldn’t the life and happiness built together mitigate that?

Amy1352…

You know, I would honestly tell my husband and then we'd probably sweep it under the rug. I don't think I would tell my kids at all.

Then I'd go into therapy.

Therapy? Why? To get over new negative feelings? Certainly not to get over having a great marriage.

MetaIMama…

I would divorce but remain friends, no reason to not have ANY relationship. I just couldn't live with the fact that I was married to my own brother.

Sad.

Skipper13…

I would keep it a secret, but I also would probably get a divorce. We can stay friends and parent the children, but I do not know that I could be comfortable being romantic with him ever again, that kind of ruins it for me.

Why? Think of it as finding out that something happened your husband when he was so young that he didn’t remember it. You find this thing to be a turn off. Would you really break up a good marriage over it?

The Stig Mommy checks back in…

DH says its way to gross and he would divorce.

That’s sad. She’d still be the same person he married.

emilysmom110405...

I actually know of a similar thing happening IRL. In this case, they were young adults (early 20s) and were not married, but were dating and the girl got pregnant. Her father passed away soon after she discovered her pregnancy. That's when all the family secrets came out. The boyfriend was either the son of her father or her father's father (could have been either as his mother was sleeping with both of them).

Interesting.

Buttercup+4…

The horse is already out of the barn. The four kids are born, and they are fine. . So there is no issue. .

I wouldn't care if I found out my husband was my fraternal twin and we were separated at birth.

There is true love.

Mommy_Pix…

After 15 yrs and four children, you have pretty much run the gamut, the only thing left is the empty nest/retirement. Why throw that away because of something you've found out AFTER all of that?

Yes.

How about you, dear reader? What would YOU do?

Hindered by a Hang-Up

GeneticSexualAttraction.com is a site for people who may be experiencing GSA or others who have concerns because someone in their lives may be experiencing GSA. There are some very helpful people there, helping people through all sorts of agony. There are also varied opinions on GSA held by the participants there. Some people there discourage any romantic or sexual relationships between close relatives, others are supportive of such relationships. Some people there are involved in such relationships and are happy, but the nature and tone of the website more often draws people in which at least one person in the relationship is struggling under the weight of societal conditioning that has taught them that such relationships are wrong. An example of that is seen in the first posting in this thread by “lostdaughter”.

She is 29 years old, and explains that her mother’s actions separated her from her biological father when she was just six months old. This past Christmas she was reunited with her father, who is now 50 years of age, and after about three weeks things progressed.

Its been very exciting...very "normal" - until 2 days ago ...things changed...
we went out for drinks and we were dancing...and i got very close...and well...he got excited...but nothing happened. later at home we started kissing. He felt bad. He has four other children...other daughters...but had never done anything like this with them. But I never had a father...and didnt feel any boundary issues.

I consider myself to be a very open minded person. Including sexual behaviours...but I never thought i would be doing anything with a father (that i never had).

it felt so right...kissing and touching each other...eventually we went upstairs to a bedroom - and we had sexual intercourse including - both of us gave/received oral sex.

he felt very guilty in the morning. I talked with him. I told him, we were both consenting adults, I am not 3 yrs old, I am almost 30. and if we enjoyed it - then there is nothing wrong. He said it wasnt normal and he felt guilty. I asked him if he enjoyed it and got a bit worried...perplexed....why I wanted to know? I asked him again, and he said YES, but he felt guilty about liking it. I told him I didnt. I told him perhaps it just society who says those things - and we shouldnt listen to it. I told him he doesnt see me like his other daughters because he didnt raise me....etc. He felt a little less guilty. I honestly enjoyed it very much, and I wanted to happen again. He said no, the first should be the last time. but we talked about it whether thats what HE wanted for himself or because thats what society told him to want. He confessed it was because of the "society"...that he enjoyed it very much and he would make love to me again. So we did again last night. the first time we had drank some...but last night we were completely sober. and we both enjoyed it.

She describes a situation that involves consensual sex between adults; something enjoyable to both. Nobody should be feeling guilty. This is where the condemnation of the “sex police” impedes the happiness of others even without getting the real police involved.

i do not have any feelings of guilt but i know he has...he thinks he shouldnt want to have sex with me. I told him its normal he doesnt see me as a daughter and sees me as a 29 yr old woman. I find him so attractive (he is very fit and doesnt look his age). He does tell me he enjoys me very much - but just feels guilty and thinks about other people finding out.

Other people should not be giving people like this a hard time. The guilt-trips people try to give others starts with condemning appreciation for the human body and condemning masturbation and doesn’t stop, continuing on to condemning relationships between mature, idependendent, consenting adults. Love is love, and what consenting adults do in a bedroom is their own concern.

Hate Adds Pain to Genetic Sexual Attration and GSA Relationships

Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA) is a condition that may be experienced when close genetic relatives who have been separated for significant amounts of time, often since birth or before puberty, are reunited. It describes an intense physical or emotional attraction, and may include sexual attraction or be expressed through sex. The attraction may or may not be mutual. Even if mutual, not all GSA results in sexual contact. (Some people prefer the term "Genetic Attraction.")

Reading accounts or watching documentaries about those struggling with GSA feelings or related actions can be heartbreaking. There are many reasons as to why.

First of all, there are all of the problems that come with any attraction or any relationship. One person is attracted to someone else and that attraction is not mutual, or is mutual only for period of time. Relationships involve at least two different people who are trying to get along with each other and to deal with those outside the relationship as well. This can all be increased when the individuals are biologically related.

This new attraction and resulting relationship can bring change, disruption, and uncertaintly to someone’s life, which is again something that may happen in general relationships as well, but can be more of an issue with biological relatives and the strong pull of GSA. This is especially a problem when someone has made a life and perhaps has existing vows with someone else. For example, a married, monogamous woman who gets in contact with a biological half-brother and finds herself strongly attracted to him and wanting to spend time with him, with or without sex. The time and attention taken from her marriage may be enough of a problem, but add sexual cheating to the mix, and it is even worse. She may love and value her husband, but feels this intense connection or draw to her half-brother that must be suppressed if she wants to have a chance to save her marriage. In that case, either choice is painful. Or what if she doesn’t want to save her marriage? What if it was dying before the GSA issue surfaced? Divorce is usually a painful experience anyway.

Some people experiencing GSA are disturbed by their feelings (or the feelings of their relative) because they feel a need to have that person in their life as a sibling, a parent, or a child, and they see sexual attraction or sex as incompatible with that role. They may feel like they finally had something they were missing for so long, only to have it taken away by unexpected or unwanted feelings and resulting tensions. Just the unfamiliar nature of these feelings may be bothersome.

In addition to all of the usual problems someone with an unrequited attraction or a mutual attraction between people can bring, one that is different with GSA is, of course, the legal, familial, social, and religious prohibitions imposed against sex with and marriage to close relatives. Incest between consenting adults is still criminalized in many places, including most US states, and bigotry against people in such relationships or experiencing such attraction continues to be perpetuated, sometimes in the most hateful and harmful ways.

This is sometimes compounded by a lack of solidarity. Even if there is a GSA relationship that didn’t break up any existing families, marriages, or relationships, and the individuals are happy together and able to share their lives in a functional way despite legal and social challenges, they may be rebuffed or judged when they reach out for understanding and support from others. Other people experiencing GSA who have decided not to have sexual relationship or have ended a sexual relationship or want to end their sexual relationship may disapprove of those who want to engage in or continue their sexual relationship. Or, if the GSA relationship is intergenerational, interracial [biracial with non-biracial], same-sex, or polyamorous, other people experiencing GSA may express disapproval based on one of those factors (in addition to all of the other people who disapprove based on those factors). Finally, those who have recently struggled or are still struggling for their own freedom to marry or just the basic freedom of association, such as LGBT people or poly people, may express contempt for consanguineous sex and love, including in cases where GSA is factor, or may be unsupportive of those in GSA relationships gaining the freedom to marry. Thus, instead of finding comfort from those who have also been targeted by those who want to control the sexuality of other adults, people experiencing GSA may find some more vitriol or at least a cold shoulder.

All of these things can bring pain and hardship to GSA relationships. Laws and public attitudes can be changed. There is some help for those struggling to deal with their feelings or the feelings of someone else or just to be themselves, but that help would be greatly aided by a change in the laws and public attitudes. That is one reason I call for solidarity. Someone who is struggling with GSA does not need the added burden of laws and finger-wavers that treat them as second-class citizens or with hate and impede their ability to make decisions in the best interest of themselves and their loved ones.

[Edited for typing errors and clarity.]

David Epstein Case Brings Out the Ignorance

Here’s a piece by Heather Muse on the David Epstein case. You know it isn’t going to be good when the title includes “Yeeeechh.”

The case brings the idea of "consensual incest" back into the spotlight. Last year, actress Mackenzie Phillips discussed her relationship with her late father, John Phillips, in her memoir, "High on Arrival," and introduced us to the term.

Really? This writer had never heard of consensual incest before? Next she’ll ask what a “ho…mo…sexual” is, or what a “marital aid” is.

The slightly-less-squicky term for consensual incestuous relationships is "genetic sexual attraction," and there are several sites on the Internet dedicated to discussing this taboo.

Actually, GSA is usually used to describe a sexual or physical attraction between biologically related people who are reunited after one or both of them matures. For example, a father and daughter relationship in which the daughter was raised by someone else with little or no contact with her father, or a brother and sister who did not grow up together. One or both may experience GSA. This attraction may or may not result in sex. Consanguineous sex, or “consensual incest,” also happens between close relatives who were not separated for such a length of time. Sometimes it is experimentation, such as between minor siblings who end up moving on and living seperate lives with others. Sometimes it is something more and results in lasting marriage relationships (only it is usually without legal marriage equality.) Nonconsensual incest is rape, assault, or molestation, including when one person is too much younger than the other person to consent.

We wonder: Can anyone truly "consent" to having a sexual relationship with a parent or other older relative? The power differential seems too great.

There is a power differential in just about any relationship, sometimes an enormous power differential. One person is more emotionally needy than another. One earns more than the other. One is more educated than another. One has more friends and family than another. One has more life experience than other. On and on it goes. To question if consent is truly possible in these cases is insulting and demeaming. There are sober, functional, healthy people who consent to consanguineous sex with an older relative. It shouldn’t be illegal or questioned, unless you would do the same to any intergenerational relationship between adults.

I can understand why someone would never want to have this level of relationship with a close relative, and I can understand why someone would only ever want a monogamous relationship. But for them to take their personal feelings and desires and insist that nobody could really consent to a polyamorous or consanguineous relationship is so much prejudice, and why full marriage equality is currently denied.

A Happy Triad That Deserves Equality

I'd added another page. The triad who inspired this blog let me interview them.

"Back to the Future" and GSA

Over at Slate, Juliet Lapidos compares and contrasts “Back to the Future,” which is now 25 years old, with Oedipus Rex.

In elementary school, I was only dimly aware of these incestuous themes. If you've graduated from eighth grade, you can't miss them. I rewatched Back to the Future on the occasion of its quarter-century anniversary (it's newly available in Blu-ray), and can attest that incest is absolutely central to the plot.

What's genius about Back to the Future, however, is that it still manages to be unfailingly PG. It's a film about having sex with your family that's family-friendly.

True, there no sex seen on screen other than kisses and an attempted assault.

This seems icky. So icky that, when writers Bob Gale and Robert Zemeckis pitched the idea for Back to the Future to Disney, the studio purportedly said that a mother falling in love with her son was not appropriate for their brand.

Universal green-lighted the project, but Disney's objection was not lost on producer Steven Spielberg, who once told Empire magazine that he "thought the Oedipal aspect was really gross."

Some people consider foods that others enjoy very much to be gross. Thankfully, this didn’t stop Spielberg from producing the film. And it should not stop people who have real-life love for each other.

Lorraine's infatuation never feels un-Disney, however. Back to the Future presents mother-son attraction not as a perversion, but as one of those things that just happens and kinda makes sense, if you think about it, since in this reality mother and son are the same age.

It makes sense for people who aren't the same age, too. I remember that when the mother character (Lorraine) kisses her son, unaware that he is her son, she pulls back and says it feels wrong, like she is kissing her brother. This was probably included to make Spielberg and others less queesy. But as we’ve seen many times in real life, especially with GSA situations, she would probably have more intense attraction to him, not less.

If mother and son had been contemporaries, would they have dated?

In reality, a son is likely to have some of the looks and mannerisms that attracted his mother to his father in the first place, as well as some of her own or those of her close family members. This can be very powerful in attracting people to each other, especially if they did not spend the last 20 years in a parent-child or sibling relationship.

Auckland Court Goes Easy on Consensual Adult Sex Charge

But isn't it stupid to convict in the the first place? Or even charge them with a crime? I was alerted to this apparent Genetic Sexual Attraction news by Saturn of the Incest News blog. As Saturn points out...

It's unknown whether they actually had sex together, but there is evidence of interest in doing so.

I also agree that...

Adultery is very harmful, but in this situation there should be some understanding about how powerful an attraction can be to a long lost relative. If there had been more knowledge and compassion, perhaps the situation could have turned out better.

I am consistent in saying that one should not have sex if that would violate an existing vow to another. If one is in a relationship that is not open to her or him having sex with this additional person, don't have the sex, or renegotiate the existing agreement(s), or end the existing relationship(s). Adultery, however, should not be a criminal matter. Nor should any consensual adult sex.

From the New Zealand Herald...

An Auckland public official has been convicted of planning a sexual relationship with his long-lost biological daughter whom he had not seen since she was a child.

The man, 58, and his daughter, 41, jointly charged with conspiracy to commit incest, were convicted in the Auckland District Court this week.

They are both adults. So why is this a crime?

The daughter left her husband and children and returned to New Zealand in October 2008 to live with her father and his family.

The daughter's husband in the UK became suspicious and hired a private investigator to tail the pair. He then laid a complaint with the New Zealand police, who laid charges in March last year of conspiracy to commit incest and committing incest.

I know she was wrong to violate her apparent vows to her husband, and it has to be hard on him, but he could have simply filed for divorce. It was also wrong for her to abandon her children.

The pair denied having sex and the more serious incest charge was later withdrawn by police.

But the case has destroyed the man's 36-year marriage and relationships with his other adult children. His occupation has been suppressed and he has been stood down for an internal inquiry.

So they were both committed to others. This is something that someone experiencing GSA should always consider. What they shouldn't have to fear is loss of job or criminal charges.

The couple pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charge and asked Judge Lindsay Moore to discharge them without conviction.

He refused, but gave them suspended sentences, so they escape further penalty unless they commit another crime in the next year.

Judge Moore should have simply tossed the case out.

Love is Love

At the GSA forum, wanttobeheld wrote of her consanguineous love…

I'm in the depths of emotional despair atm, but whilst preparing dinner tonight, I had a moment to reflect on meetings past with my father, and the things that attracted him to me.

So, in an attempt to brighten our collective moods, how about we post a few snippets about what it was that had you falling in love in your GA relationship ?

For me,
- our similar intellect and ability to converse on an intelligent level
- the similarities in our looks. Finally, someone who looked like me !
- the smell. I've said it before, but *nothing* compares to knowing that smell, and the sense of belonging it brought.
- the similarities in interests - from food, to career choices, to television shows, to movies, to, well, everything !
- the unconditional love. Having come from a less than loving adoptive family, knowing that my father loved me unconditionally was like having a warm blanket wrapped around me in my worst moments.

redwitch responded…

What attracted me to him?
Well..the smile..He looks absolutly nothing like me..He is tall, has deep grey eyes, dark straight hair..while my eyes are a boring brown, my hair curly, and it's colour changes with every season..so,his different looks is a big turn on for me..
His atitude.Totally different from mine.I like spontaneus, new things,living to the extreme.He is dependable,a shoulder to rely on, who if has something in his mind will stop at nothing to get it, and will fight to the very last breath if he wants something.
His smell..I have never in my life sensed something that smells so good.Mix chocklate and a bit of spice and bit of mint and you have his smell..If that's not addicting God knows what is.
His touch.He seems to know exactly where I want to be touched and how.Not sexual.Necceserilly.But hug if I need it,handholding if that, or kissing.
He has the habbit of holding me in his arms at night,and I always hated that,except when he did it.If that is not a sign I don't know what is

LostNTime…

Well, I would have to say at first it was his voice. His voice has this sound to it that viberates, and it gives me chills still. When we got closer it was his touch. The warmth that flooded me when he touched my arm,my hand, or had his are around me. Then his smell, oh my God his smell... he smells like hazelnut. Delicious. Then when our smells mingle, hazelnut, vanilla, and chocolate. When he looks at me, and his eyes are full of admiration, love, happiness, and passion. It amazes me. I love the way he's open with his feelings to me, and doesn't try to be tough. I see his fears, pain, and courage. I see his human side. I love him. Even when we're mad at each other, or when I second guess us, my thought is I don't want to live without him. I love him. I would have to say everything made me fall, and I never want to look back. He's my everything

I wanted post these quotes because it is important to see that these people are or were in love and it is wrong to harass them or deny their their rights to love, sex, and marriage, if that is what they want. Those who want to deny them those things should have to look them in the face and explain their cruel position.

A Persecuted Person

A woman who has experienced GSA warns that…

There are few places where it is not prosecuted, but even fewer where it would be accepted.

She goes on to explain how bigotry against GSA has destroyed her life…

As for me…in the past year I have lost:

My job, my home, most of my friends, and my savings. I’ve incurred great debts, and faced jail. Not many family members know, but out of the few that do, I am treated VERY differently. I moved out of state, to a place where no one knows me. I live in one room that I rent out of someone else’s home because I can’t afford anything else. Almost everything I own is in storage and I may lose my car as well. My health has suffered immensely because of the stress over the past year.

The most important loss is this…my heart is in pieces because part of my life has been ripped away from me. In March, my three youngest children were taken from me by the court and given to my ex husband’s family. I only had a few hours to get them packed and say goodbye. It is not safe for them there, yet no one in authority cares because they don’t see GSA, they don’t see me. They see a monster, a criminal, a deviant and to them they think that justifies sending them back to a place that we fled from to begin with.

Should all of this happen to someone because of mutual attraction and consensual sex? Prejudice hurts.

Something to Show the Bigots

There was more coverage recently of a study that shows familial attraction is not unnatural or uncommon.

Freud may have been partially right when he said we were all repressing incestuous urges.

In a new study, people were more attracted to faces that resembled their own or that were preceded by a subliminal image of their opposite sex parent.

But rather than suggesting we all secretly want to have sex with our family members, the results instead point to the power of familiarity in shaping who we find attractive.

While romance, dating, sex, marriage, etc. don’t always result from attraction, attraction can lead to such things.

They also cast doubt on the idea that people have an innate repulsion toward incest.

Some people clearly have a repulsion, whether it is innate or not. But others don’t have such a repulsion, and they should not be attacked because they don’t. Some of the repulsion expressed vehemently by some people may be in denial of their latent feelings.

However, not all researchers are convinced the new results have such far-reaching implications.

You can always find more than one opinion.

Inbreeding brings together rare mutations that can cause severe birth defects.

Can’t have an article like this without throwing that in. Breeding always carries the risk of birth defects.

The article then gets into Freud and Westermarck.

But other evidence indicated that people were actually attracted to mates who resembled their parents. In another study published in 2004 in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B, people shown images of women's adoptive fathers were able to guess the spouses of the women based solely on the spouse's appearance. In other words, the women married men who resembled their adoptive fathers.

So that would be modeling or imprinting, instead of genetics.

"Westermarck's ideas suggested that certain factors, such as familial resemblance or growing up with someone, tend to inhibit attraction because they trigger evolved incest avoidance mechanisms," study researcher R. Chris Fraley of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign told LiveScience. "However, a lot of data in social psychology suggest that these very same factors tend to facilitate attraction between people. We hoped to better understand why those two streams of thought were in opposition to one another."

Generalities can be studied, but individual examples all have their own circumstances. What are the family dynamics? What have been the dynamics between the individuals, such as between a brother and sister?

Fraley and his colleague Michael Marks of New Mexico State University in Las Cruces conducted a series of experiments using college students. In the first experiment, students were asked to rate images of strangers for attractiveness, but unbeknownst to them, the images were preceded by subliminal snapshots of either the rater's opposite sex parent or someone unrelated to them. The students rated the images more attractive if they were shown an image of their opposite sex parent first.

And in the case of siblings, your sibling is likely to share some of the looks of your parent.

In the second experiment, the researchers created the images by morphing different faces together. Some students were shown faces that were morphed with their own face by up to 45 percent. The more the face resembled their own, the more attractive they rated it.

And you tend to share looks with your family members.

In a final experiment, Fraley and Marks told some of the students they would be viewing images that were morphed with their own faces, which was a lie. The images were actually composites of other people. In that case, the students rated the images as less attractive than those not given that false bit of information.

They know what they look like.

The results argue against Westermarck's view, the researchers wrote in the July 20 issue of the journal Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin. If students were subconsciously evaluating the images for relatedness to themselves, the presence of their parent's face or elements of their own face should have triggered disgust.

Moreover, the students who were told they were looking at images of themselves should have rated those images more attractive than they did - because the images were actually unrelated to them.

Another researcher points out that Westermarck is about siblings, not parent-child.

Attraction can be complex. Different people are attracted to different personalities, intellects, body types, skin color, hair color, facial features, and on and on.

Whether family members are raised together or not, there could be any number of reasons two or more of them fall in love, and if people are good to each other and not breaking up homes, those relationships should be encouraged, certainly not punished by law.

There Are People Who Understand

Little Lover Kitty from GSA asked on Yahoo Answers…

Genetic Sexual Attraction?
My older HALF brother and i didnt grow up together. We became friends as adults and we realized how similar we were and how much we were alike. He told me that he had romantic feelings for me one night and i told him that i did too. We had a secret affair for about 4 months untill our mom read my diary and discoverd our secret nights. She kicked him out and he is living in texas agian with his dad. we are both still in love. so passionatly in love. we feel that we are soul mates. We talk everyday and we are working on being together again in the near future.

My question is basically what do you guys feel about this and what are your thoughts about Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA)?

For my thoughts, see something I wrote here recently.

When you are living in someone else’s house, you live by their rules.

She adds…

And you guys are also verrry brainwashed about "incest babies" i know people who have children with thier parents or their full siblings and their children are totally healthy

Here is an intelligent answer…

Even though I disagree with it, I support your right to do it. I think people should have the right to do whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't infringe upon anyone else's rights. Keep the government out of the bedroom.

Thank you.

But since you guys weren't raised together, I can't see anything wrong with what you are doing.

It shouldn’t matter if they were raised together or not; the right to love, sex, and marriage should still be the same. It seems less likely they would be in this situation if they were raised together, but that still happens.

Another intelligent answer…

It seems that most responses are obsessed with birth defects and weird babies if closely related have kids. I believe we are finding out this is nothing but an 'old wives tale'.

The legal system should not be concerned about who we love or what we do in our bedroom as long as it is consensual.

May things work out for you and your lover.

And another…

Considering what society will accept these days, it's a sad situation when it won't accept two people being together in a loving, consensual relationship. As far as the baby situation is concerned, there are obviously a lot of misinformed people out there, and the genetic risks are wildly exaggerated. Nobody tells women over 40 that they shouldn't have children, and nobody tells people who have known genetic disorders that they cannot have children.

There is hope! We do have allies. People do get it. If LLK and her brother can be on their own, they shouldn't be kept from each other.

Irish Brother and Sister Plan Wedding

The Irish Mail (Daily Mail) has given an update on a woman and her half brother. I blogged about them before.

And even though the couple – known as ‘James’ and ‘Maura’ – realise it is illegal for them to marry, they say they are still determined to spend the rest of their lives together and will break the law to do so.

Why would anyone else care to stop people who are in love from marrying?

James said: ‘We have applied to get married and there are no mistakes in the paperwork so we will be able to wed at the end of this month.

‘We were aiming for Christmas but we have decided to do it sooner. Maura has got her wedding dress, we’ve ordered identical suits for myself and our son. We’ve also ordered a cake and we plan to go on a honeymoon a few weeks after the wedding.

‘It will be a very small wedding. We have two witnesses who we know very well and they know about our situation. I don’t know whether our father will come or whether any of our parents will be there.

I can understand that parents may have a hard time when their children find love this way, just as it is hard to accept when their child comes out as gay or lesbian. But I urge parents to honor the love that their children have and support the freedom to marry. Don't let insitutionalized prejudice hurt the relationship you have with your children.

So strong was their mutual attraction that just one week after meeting, they both felt they had known each other for a lifetime.

Two years later, Maura became pregnant and the couple moved in together. Later that year their son, Mark, was born.

This sounds like so many other relationships. That’s because really, it is like so many other relationships.

Here’s a recap of how this happened…

Since Christmas, with the help of DNA tests and gentle questioning, James and Maura have discovered the following: On a night out in the Eighties, Carmel, then aged 19, met Tom, and the pair dated for four or five weeks before going their separate ways.

However, after discovering she was pregnant with James, Carmel opted not to tell Tom she was expecting his child.

By the time James was born, she was in a relationship with Vincent, and it was he who she named as James’s father on the baby’s birth certificate. It was not until about four years later that Tom discovered Carmel had had a child.

Keen to find out whether he was the boy’s father, he made contact. Many of the details about what happened next are sketchy. However, what is clear is that even though Tom was by now married and the father of a daughter, he was determined to be a part of his son’s life and embarked on a legal battle to win access.

However, it was the Eighties and court cases like this were few and far between. But Tom was undeterred and, when the case was heard behind closed doors, Carmel admitted that Tom was indeed James’s biological father.

However, the court ruled that James should not be told who his real father was, and that Tom should not be given access to the young boy.

The couple points out that the same legal system that denied James access to his biological father shouldn’t be respected when it says he should not be allowed to marry the woman he loves, the mother of his child.

princess_pow in London had a good comment on the article…

They're in a difficult and painful position, but there doesn't seem to be anything even slightly abusive about this relationship. If their child (which they had before they knew the situation) is healthy, then nobody is being hurt by this - quite the opposite, at least the child will grow up with parents who love him and one another, and I wish them luck and hope their secret identities remain secret.

They shouldn’t have to hide to have a good life. Shame on those who keep laws in place that encourage a stigma.

The Unjust Prosecution of Katheryn Thornton

Officials in King County, Seattle should be ashamed of themselves for prosecuting Katheryn M. Thornton for having consensual sex for eighteen months with a man who was about 27 years of age when it started. Reading through the various news reports, it appears that the man, whose name is not given due to his “victim” status, could be using unjust laws against adult, consensual, consanguineous sex for nefarious reasons.

From the Seattle Times…

A 54-year-old Eastside woman has been charged with first-degree incest for allegedly conducting a two-year sexual relationship with an adult son she had given up for adoption when he was an infant.

Sounds like a possible case of GSA.

Katheryn M. Thornton invited her son, now 33, to live with her near Kirkland in March 2004 after he tracked her down through an adoption agency, according to charging papers filed in King County Superior Court earlier this month.

He tracked her down. Then she invited him into her home. He could have said “no” right then and there, for starters. I wonder if he is planning to sue her and the adoption agency?

In May, the man reported the alleged incest to a King County sheriff's detective.

Why would he do this? Blackmail? Revenge? I have my suspicions.

He told the detective that the day after he moved in, Thornton "came into his room and lay next to him. He said [on] day three, she invited him into her room. He said on day four, they had sex," charging papers say.

He would have been about 27 at the time. There is no indication in the news coverage that he was of congenital or drug-induced mental deficiency. No force indicated. This was consensual. Why is this a crime?

The man said the sexual relationship lasted until March 2006, according to the charges.

Why did it last so long? Surely he is stronger than her, and able to be independent. He was probably enjoying himself.

The son, who is not being named because he is considered a victim of sexual assault, was granted a sexual-assault protection order against Thornton on Tuesday, barring her from coming within 500 feet of him, court records show.

This is convenient for him. We’ll see why later.

First-degree incest is a Class B felony. If convicted, Thornton would face a 12- to 14-month prison sentence and be required to register as a sex offender.

This is outrageous. He is just as “guilty” as she is. Can you imagine going to prison for this? Registering as a sex offender? I want to know if a child molester or rapist moves in to my neighborhood. I have no reason to fear a woman who has consensual sex with another adult.

The Associated Press picked up the story, but at least they don’t give her name in the report I saw, as they shouldn’t unless they want to come to her defense. His name should be published alongside hers, or neither name should be published. I include her name because I do want her to know there are people who are against this persecution of her.

From Seattle Weekly…

And on the fourth night, mother and son had sex for the first time, beginning what would eventually become an incredibly creepy 18-month relationship.

Why is that creepy? This blogger’s bigotry is showing.

Thornton told prosecutors that she was excited to have her son living with her and that the two had an "awareness." Like many love birds, the relationship started off hot and heavy, with Thornton reporting that initially they had sex all the time, including in a locked bathroom so her other children wouldn't catch them, but eventually the amorous affections tapered off to about once every two weeks.

Sounds like many other relationships with a passionate start and ups and downs. I believe her account because he didn’t leave. It is understandable when dependents don’t leave. He was no dependent or hostage.

Given that he was an adult at the time, it wouldn't seem that the man should be considered a victim. But the King County prosecutor's office has charged Thornton with first-degree incest, a felony. And Deputy Chief of Staff Ian Goodhew says the office has its reasons.

"We're pretty conservative when we make a charging decision regarding incest," says Goodhew. "But there were a number of concerning factors weighed before filing this charge."

Those factors: the two underage kids living with Thornton.

Then charge them both with child endangerment, though I fail to see what the legal problem is given that married people, unmarried cohabitating people, and virtual strangers have sex all of the time even though there are children in the same home.

And the way she confessed to sleeping with her son with no apparent sense that it might be against the law or, ya know, morally repugnant.

It shouldn’t be against the law. And how is it morally repugnant? Merely saying it is doesn’t make it so.

Now here is where we start to get a better idea of what is really going on here…

The wheels were put in motion in May, when Thornton's son plead guilty to a (surprise, surprise) charge of child molestation.

So a child molester complains that a woman has been having sex with him for eighteen months? Hey, I agree that people should shun child molesters (which would include not having sex with them) but there’s nothing illegal about adults having sex with child molesters. It happens all of the time, unfortunately.

But it is awfully convenient that a child molester’s name is being kept out of the media now because he is a “victim.” Is he getting some sort of deal in his case for this, too?

From this report, we get…

The son said his mother's younger children knew he slept in Thornton's bedroom, but they did not know about the sex, according to the documents.

Maybe they didn’t, maybe they did. I don't think his word is worth much. Children sometimes think of their parents only have sex enough times to make them. Other children figure things out for themselves. And still others just don’t think about it at all, if they are prepubescent.

If this man is a child molester, she shouldn’t have exposed her children to him. But she isn’t being charged for that. She is being charged with having consensual sex with another adult, behind closed doors. We need these laws wiped off the books. Prosecute people for child endangerment, neglect, abuse, molestation, assault, rape, you name it. But let’s not allow consensual sex between adults to be prosecuted or illegal.

I call on any judge or jury that gets a say in this case to refuse to convict someone of a crime for having consensual sex in private.

Ongoing GSA Research

The Good Dr. Eric Anderson is looking for some more information over a Genetic Sexual Attraction. Here are the questions he asks…

1) Has anyone who has always been heterosexual, felt strong GSA for a bio-family member of the same-sex?

2) Has anyone who has always been gay, felt GSA for a bio-family member of the opposite sex?

3) Who supports the idea that GSA comes not from psychological disturbance of meeting a lost-sibling, but instead a chemical lock produced by an attraction of pheromones linked to our genetic ancestry of evolution? Who has had an experience of hugging your lost family member and feeling a euphoria from the nose to the genitals (for lack of a better example). I.e. who has gone, 'oh my god he/she smelled so good?'

4) Does anyone else have a theory of how GSA comes to be? Regardless of how obscure you might think it. Regardless of how well you might be able to articulate it or not, please post.

If you can give him relevant information, I recommend doing so. I think his work could aid in advancing the freedom to marry.

There is a much helpful discussion on that website, not just in that one thread. Not everyone there encourages the rights I do, but even the perspective of those who don’t can be helpful.

Father-Son GSA

Someone calling himself Saul wrote to Miriam Stoppard’s advice column…

When I was in my teens and still thought of myself as straight, I had a brief relationship with a girl. Now, 20 years on, I've been contacted by the son I never knew existed and he's gay like me.

I think it's great he's happy with his sexuality and I love having him in my life - it's like being with my younger self.

What really bothers me is I've started to become attracted to him. A 15-year relationship ended last year and I hate myself for thinking the things I've been thinking. What should I do?

Saul should be careful. As with attraction in another other case, the feelings might not be mutual or even if mutual, the other person may not want to act on them. Saul does not indicate that he thinks it is best for him not to act on his feelings, though he did write that the feelings bother him.

If he isn’t open to acting on his feelings, then he should not tell his son about them, and instead seek advice on how to cope from people who have been through the same thing at this website. Most people, at some point in their lives, have attractions that they do not express, at least not to the person to whom they are attracted.

Maybe there just needs to be more time, and the feelings will go away.

However, if they don't and if Saul is open to acting on that attraction, then he should be as cautious as he would be in any other delicate situation, such as with a friend or coworker, but keep in mind that there is much prejudice.

For example, the columnist writes…

You must resist the temptation to express your feelings for your son by touching him sexually.

Why? If they both want it, then they are consenting adults. They don’t currently rely on each other; one is not the boss, landlord, or legal guardian of the other.

This would be incest and you would create disastrous, complicated, serious problems for yourself and your son.

The only problems I can think of, besides the normal risks inherent in sexual relationships, is prejudice. Remove the prejudice, and suddenly there aren’t so many problems.

Fate has placed him in your path and you should fulfil your destiny and be his dad.

The young man is an adult. If he doesn’t have a “dad” already, then Saul can be both his father and lover. How about opening up that mind a little?

Woman Considering Half-Brother

Someone signing her letter “Anon. Cardiff” wrote in to an advice column in the UK. She seems to be experiencing GSA. After thinking she was an only child all of her life, she found out that she had a half-brother about her age, and she met him.

Straight away I thought how attractive he was (we look alike!) but the attraction is turning into something more. From cuddles (like brother and sister) we’re beginning to hold on for too long and getting a bit tactile. Would it be so wrong?

Before I could answer this, I’d need to know if this woman is in a closed relationship. If she isn’t in a relationship, or is in an open relationship, than no, it wouldn’t be wrong. But the person writing the answer, “Linda”, pulls out the prejudice right away.

Yes, according to our laws on incest.

We used to have laws against same-sex relationships, too. The laws are wrong, not consensual sex between adults.

These would have been implemented to protect the vulnerable from exploitation and disturbing, harmful acts by relatives; also to guard against the double severity of genetic disorders being passed on to offspring of incestuous relationships.

Ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of children born with genetic disorders in the West are born to nonconsanguineous couples, and most children born to consanguineous couples are at least as health as the general population. This would be consensual behavior, not assault.

Stop trying to get other people to conform to your ideals. This could be the great love of her life.

Another Documentary on GSA

Over at GeneticSexualAttraction.com I saw another notice about a project that may advance the freedom to marry.

My name is Isla Harvey and I am a journalist working in NYC for an international press agency. We provide news and feature articles for magazines and newspapers. We also make documentaries for National Geographic, TLC, Discovery, Channel 4, the BBC and ITV. We are currently making a series of thought-provoking programmes for TLC.

I am researching the subject of Genetic Sexual Attraction for our next film and would like to find two to five articulate people to candidly describe their feelings on camera. We aim to explore how GSA happens, what effects it has on people, how they learn to live with it, and the experiences they have.

The aim is to produce a sensitive and non-judgemental documentary that will enlighten the general public and also help people who experience GSA to find others who can give them guidance and support. We plan to speak to support group leaders, trusted medical experts and counsellors as part of the film. The project would be accompanied by some print articles and you would be compensated for your time.

Anyone who participates will be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy.

Contact information:

Isla Harvey
US Features Correspondent
+1 212 564 8159
Barcroft Media
2nd Floor
989 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York, 10018
isla@barcroftmedia.com.
http://www.barcroftmedia.com/

Also see this previous entry on another project.

More on Being Attracted to Family

Ken Eisold, PhD, writes about something we covered earlier: recent evidence about being attracted to the appearance of family members that can manifest in our attraction to people who aren’t family members, but resemble family members.

There is other evidence for this tendency -- as well as parallel perspectives. Neuroscientists now understand that the brain organizes input according to pre-existing categories. So the earlier experiences we all had with caregivers - those who were present and active in caring for us as children - become the templates for later relationships. That may be why, as Professor Fraley put it, we are drawn to others who resemble our kin.

Psychoanalysts have called this tendency "transference," since it seems that attachments to earlier figures in our lives are transferred to current figures with whom we are deeply engaged. That's why the people with whom we fall in love tend to resemble parental figures. That also helps to explain why we reproduce parental expectations in our relationships with the therapists we come to trust and on whom we depend.

So far, so good.

But those attachments can also become frightening if they are too intense or if they tempt us into actions that conflict with adult responsibilities. It is touching for a daughter to say she wants to marry her daddy when she grows up, but it would be shocking for her daddy to encourage those feelings and criminal to exploit them.

Yes, if a parent of a minor child grooms that child for abuse or emotional dependency, that’s horrible. But if not, and that child returns home with eyes wide open having seen what’s out in the world, and as and adult that child chooses to enter into a new level of relationship with a parent, that’s not a problem.

New Research Project

Over at the very helpful GSA forum, Dr. Eric Anderson checked in looking for people willing to be a part of his research into genetic sexual attraction.

I am currently finishing up a book about cheating and monogamy for Oxford University Press, and as of January I will be looking for a new issue to bring sympathetic light to.

I found it.

My next research project will be on GSA. I will work very closely with Barbara and others in crafting it. I will get a very sympathetic, well-researched, book out about GSA. And I will use the media to disseminate the knowledge.

Projects like this can help end mistreatment of those in consanguineous sexual relationships and advance marriage equality. That’s why I wanted to help get the word out. Check out the Dr.'s site.