Half Siblings Can Marry in Sweden

emmashore asked, “I've heard that half siblings are allowed to marry in sweden, provided they receive 'special approval'. Is this true???”

According to this map, yes. This law is better than in most places, but any consenting adult should be able to marry any other consenting adult and special approval should not be needed, unless everyone who gets married has to get special approval.

Swinglish...

Both [cousins, half siblings] are just weird....I should think any right minded person would agree.

emmashore…

LOL I totally agree, wasn't asking for personal reasons.. was asking out of disgust and shock.

Isn’t that cute? They can be friends and hate other people together.

Carl T …

I also note that the ban on sex/marriage between close relatives appears to mostly be based on the notion that it's disgusting. If it were based on the risk of birth defects, I would also expect there to be a blanket ban on sex for those with serious heritable diseases and old but pre-menopause women, or a ban on reproduction but not on sex and marriage, or at the very least the laws would be based on biological and not legal relatedness (though since 2004 there is a possibility for adopted whole siblings to be allowed to marry, with no mention of whether they could then legally have sex).

Correction to the above: I found a comment to the relevant law, which clarifies that only biological whole siblings can be guilty of "samlag med syskon" (intercourse with sibling).

He makes a point. We don’t have equality under the law if a reason used to deny marriage equality isn’t applied to other cases to also deny freedoms.

Jamtjim…

So, my thought is this: If we accept in a modern liberal society that two consenting adults can do whatever they want sexually so long as it doesn't hurt any third party, then is it right to have a law which prohibits genetic siblings from having sex with each other?

No, it isn’t.

Now I realise that peoples first thought may be of disgust, personally I find the notion of inter-sibling sex morally and ethically wrong, but then law should not be based on subjective morality. Some people regard homosexual acts as wrong morally, but yet society has learned to accept this as like I said before, if it is consensual, and nobody gets hurt then this is accepted. Similarly, certain people believe that all sex outside of marriage is ethically wrong. Again modern societies to do not uphold laws which forbid this either.

Right. Disapprove all you want, but don’t force your disapproval on the lives of others.

CathySky…

I think people who do this suffer from low self esteem or some other mental health issue.

And she bases this on…? The people I know are healthy, happy, well-adjusted people.

Shibumi…

Although incest is a universal taboo, this taboo is universally violated.

Yes. Nobody does it. Except that it happens all over the world. Let’s drop the charade.

As for the legal aspects, I think that there are already laws on the books that deal with the control, domination and abuse aspects often involved in incest cases. These should be enforced. If there is a victim, the victim should be protected and defended by society and the victimizer should be stopped and punished. As for the (I believe) much rarer cases where two completely consenting and able-minded adults who are closely related, wish to behave as a couple, I don't think a law is needed.

Not just couples.

If societal pressure does not prove to be enough to keep them apart, they are not actually harming anyone and the government/state/law representing "we the people" should not enter their bedroom. We can still think it is wrong and pass personal judgment on them and frown and shun them… within the limits of the law of course… but not everything most of us agree is "wrong" should be legislated.

Thank you!

Jamtjim…

Is it fair to discriminate against people in a non-abusive relationship simply because there are a larger number of abusive ones? It it fair to deny these people the right to engage in a totally consensual relationship solely because of the actions of other people?

No!

Is this not against the principles of a free liberal society?

Yes, it is.

Time and time again, we see that arguments against this freedom to marry are nothing more than personal distaste, not reasoned policy.

Mackenzie Phillips Book Update

Mackenzie Phillips has a paperback edition of her book hitting stores soon, with updates, including her family’s reaction to her writing and speaking of having a sexual relationship with her father.

It would be interesting for an objective party to go through how the delivery of her message has changed in response to media reaction.

I’m not privy to the specific dynamics of her relationship with her father, but in general, a woman should be able to write and talk about having a consensual sexual relationship with her father (or mother, sister, brother, etc.) without being trashed or told she’s mistaken about her consent or feelings about it, and without the deceased person being trashed.

Defending Stephanie Seymour

Here’s an example of someone trashing the beautiful Stephanie Seymour for daring to be affectionate with her son in public. I’ll edit the quotes slightly to remove language that some people still get upset about.

One of the things that has me saying “Are you f------ stupid?” are the photos of Stephanie Seymour and her son.

She goes on…

The photos do look like she’s making out with her son. A little creepy…yes!

Why is that creepy?

Is it normal for a son to cop a feel of the boobies?

For some people, yes. Jealous?

Turns out her son is gay. Which apparently makes it ok to make out with your hot Mom on a beach.

It’s okay for any adult to be affectionate with any consenting adult on a beach. It should certainly be legal.

My question is, “Are you f------ stupid?”

Maybe they were simply having some minimal affection. Or maybe it is a sign of more. What’s the problem? What’s stupid is trashing others for sharing love and affection.

I have to admit, I’m vey curious to hear your thoughts on the pics.

My thought is that it is too bad that everyone can’t be on such good terms with their parent or child.

A Good Question

Stefan1991 asked “Why is Incest illegal in the UK?” He cites a mother and father of four children. This couple story of this is well known to people who follow news about consanguineous sex, as they were both jailed for loving each other as they are brother and sister.

Who has the right to say that a consensual relationship is wrong?

Glen_Nichols gave the standard, ignorant reply…

The kids will be mutants.

As has been pointed out many times before, most sex does not result in births, most children born to consanguineous parents are healthy, and, finally, we do not deny people their reproductive rights based on the likelihood of their offspring having birth defects or inherited diseases.

Lewroll had a strong reaction, but was unable to provide a logical argument to keep consanguineous sex criminalized…

Ok, thats it, I've had enough. This has gone too far!!

This attitude of let two consenting adults do whatever they want is fine...up to a point.

Incest is sick, and if it ever becomes legal....just the thought of it makes me want to be sick.

Then don’t do it. Don’t want such a relationship? Don’t have one.

How would you feel if your brother and sister came home one day and told you they had been having sex?

I’m happy for any consenting adults who have found love, or at least a good time, with each other, as long as they aren’t violating existing vows to another.

Stefan1991 returned to the discussion to expose what a weak argument Lewroll was using…

What would you do if your mum came home one day and said she had raunchy sex with your dad. Oh, would you feel sick then too? Better ban parental sex as well.

Exactly. Just because someone is turned off or disgusted does not mean everyone else should have to refrain.

The discussion goes on for many more messages.

What if you couldn't marry the person you love? Think about that.

What Is a Taboo?

Mary Lupin writes…

Is that what taboo is then? A way of protecting an untenable, but dearly held, belief from examination? An interesting thought when one considers taboo subjects like incest. When I was an undergraduate anthropologist I remember thinking about the universal incest taboo and realizing that meant that it was also universal behaviour. The question is do we make it taboo to stop it or to hide it?

The incest taboo is part of an overall attempt to control the sexuality of the masses. Whether we’re talking consanguineous sex, polyamory, same-sex reationships, interracial relationships, intergender relationships (between adults), we’re dealing with something that the sex police have tried to discourage as a way to exert control over others. Intergender relationships have been strictly controlled so that only older male-younger female relationships have been permissible, for example; otherwise, they have to be the same generation.

Prohibitions drive the relationships underground and cause many problems. This should no longer be allowed. We should talk about and respect the freedom of others to share love, sex, and marriage the way they want.

If We Could Talk to the Animals

Jenny Block, who has written about open marriage, wrote that there are some interesting comparisons between humans and other animals when it comes to sexuality. How often have we heard that some relationship isn’t “natural?”

As she says, “Just because animals do certain things doesn’t prove that we necessarily do them too.” But sometimes humans can be compared to other animals, and the comparisons have weight. We might be able to get some good ideas from them.

She points out that animals flirt, they masturbate, they watch other animals express their sexuality, even through video.

They exhibit habits other than monogamy. They are polygamous and polygynous. And they are social monogamists as well as serial monogamists, even swans. Bonobos, for example, have multiple sexual partners at any given time in their life. And some species even engage in group sex. When red-sided garter snakes mate, the female is made the center of what is called a mating ball, where 100 males all attempt to mate with the female at the same time.

People exhibit habits other than monogamy. Although not always socially accepted, people partner in a variety of ways. Many of those ways have proved to be perfectly healthy.

Also,

They are homosexual as well as heterosexual. Marine birds, mammals, monkeys, great apes, dolphins, penguins, cattle, bonobos and rams are just a few of the many animal species in which scientists have observed homosexual behavior.

Humans are homosexual as well as heterosexual, obviously. And each is perfectly normal and absolutely biological. Once again, the only issue in human society is our lack of acceptance of both orientations.

She goes on to note that some animals have sex for pleasure, some will seek out additional sex partners if the current one is not interested in another session at that time, some over-indulge, and there are female initiators. And I’ll add that anyone who has had closely related hamsters can verify that some animals engage in consanguineous sex.

Consenting adults should have their rights to any of these things, without the law interfering.

You Don’t Have to Like It

Shu Fen references a case in Singapore I covered here.

CURRENT TOPICS OF CONCERN: ethics (as usual)...INCEST (I mean, other than being unimaginably disgusting and the child produced having higher risk of genetic diseases...what is so explicably wrong about it if it is mutually consensual?)...wait for me to write a thesis on it or something lol. (for the article that piqued my interest:

It may be disgusting to Shu Fen, but there are many people who have everything ranging from recreational fun to lifelong, loving spousal relationships that are with (a) close relative(s). But at least this blogger questions why someone would consider such relationships wrong. You don’t have to like the idea of interracial, same-sex, polyamorous, or consanguineous sex to recognize that it should be up to consenting adults to decide if those relationships are best for them or not.

More Allies, But Some Myths Persist

On Yahoo Answers, Kati touches on solidarity issues, having asked, “Why are some people who are for homosexual relationships against incestuous relationships?”

Only some people who are “for” homosexual relationships are against consanguineous sexual (incestuous) relationships. Other people recognize that neither homosexual nor consanguineous relationships should be illegal, nor should marriage equality be denied based on either factor. Whether a relationship is same-sex or heterosexual is a different category than whether a relationship is consanguineous or not. That is why some people who may support one may not support the other; they have prejudices against one but not the other. Lately, I’ve encountered people who strongly reject the freedom to polygamy, but are engaged in consanguineous sex. Different categories.

if two people love each other it shouldn't matter, right?

They don’t even need to love each other.

The asker makes it clear this is about consenting adults…

pedophilia has nothing to do with my question. pedophilia can't be compared with homosexual or incestuous relationships because it involves children that can't consent to sexual acts. while too homosexual adults and incestuous adults can consent. So im comparing the two.

There were a lot of allies speaking up. I quote from a few below.

SnuggleBum replied…

Honestly, if the two people in the incestuous relationship are both consenting adults, I don't really care.

Thank you!

Robted…

If it's two adults, I actually couldn't care less.

Thank you!

Thomas Jefferson…

If it's two consenting adults, then its none of my business or your business. Incest, like homosexuality, has been prevalent throughout history in all societies. I am not homosexual or incestuous, but who am I to say what is wrong?

Thank you!

Dianna…

Well, personally I feel both of them are wrong, but to answer your question an incestuous relationship is very wrong because people should not have sexual relations with family members.

Why not?

This is not the natural order of things because if it was then there wouldn't be a high rate of birth defects in children born in incestuous relationships.

Most sex doesn’t lead to births. Two, three, or four brothers could have sex for a lifetime and will never have any children. The same may also happen with a brother and a sister. Also, most children born to close relatives are healthy. We don’t bar other people with a higher-than-average risk from having children. And yet, this “reason” for denying this freedom to marry was cited by several people.

Jimmy Lee…

You've got a point. This is why I'm not against incest, though I personally find that the idea makes me shudder a bit. I don't have anything against people whose attracted to a relative of theirs. You are right, as long as the love is legitimate it shouldn't matter what these two people are. Whether it be heterosexuals, homosexuals, interracial couples, and even relatives. I'm in no position to judge.

Thank you!

Aoh Oah…

i think that as long as both people are consenting, i think it should be fine.

Thank you!

Duane…

Well, my opinion may have some holes in it. But what I think is that you are "born" into homosexuality then you can't control a gender you like. But you don't come out liking your cousin/brother/sister in that way, the relationship must be built.

There are people in consanguineous relationships who have what they consider an irresistible draw to each other. But either, this does not explain why there are laws against it. Actually, we don't tend to pass laws against things nobody wants to do. Some people enjoy these relationships, to the point of being prosecuted.

But I'm sure if the other person looked hard enough, they'd soon realize there are other people out there than just your cousin/brother/sister...

If someone in an interracial relationship looked hard enough, they could find someone to love who is of their own race. This does not justify keeping them from the person they want.

PurplePanda…

I am pro-gay but I just can't support incest. Homosexuals and incestuous relationships are two different things.

Yes, they are. So are interracial relationships and same-sex relationships. But they all involve consenting adults. Why should consenting adults be denied equality?

You should NOT being having sex with a family member.

Why not? PurplePanda doesn’t say why.

Stephen…

Well I am a part of the lgbt community and I think of myself as open minded. But incest is really gross why would anyone sleep with a relative I'm repulsed by my family

Some people are repulsed by the thought of two men having sex and can’t understand wanting to have gay sex. But so what? That shouldn’t deny anyone their rights to love, sex, and marriage. Thankfully, as we can see, more and more people recognize this.

Tasty Apples and Rotten Oranges

MissSwatty was on Facebook and something caught her attention.

One of my FB friends posted why she hated incest sex and after reading her purge, I was prompted to congratulate her for her bravery.

This is not written very clearly. At first, I was wondering if she considered it bravery to express a hatred for incest. But it looks like she is saying her friend was revealing that she (the friend) was a victim of sexual abuse and MissSwatty thoight her friend brave for admitting that.

As we went back and forth, posting this, commenting about that, she shared with me the name of an individual in India who enjoys having sex with his mother. I immediately thought, 'what the hell?' but minimized my judgment--or at least tried--as cultural differences may allow for such acts (but even still, what the hell?). Definitely judging and thrown off guard as incest sex is a deplorable act and often requires years of therapy/talking/venting, etc to fully recover, I had to 'see' for myself. And so, I ventured to his wall in hopes of uncovering a sick joke but to be exact, it, indeed, is an act that him and his mother, unapologetically, engage in on a regular basis.

If they both enjoy it, what is the problem?

His wall was covered with posts such as 'My morning was good...... had a small ride with my mother in bed.....', 'While having a ride in morning, mom was in green night gown and blue panty with printed design flowers.....', and 'Today my mother was wearing cream color bra and brown panty. She removes them before sleeping.' Further deepening my disgust was the comments left by others that included, 'How old is ur mom dude? i think shes so delicious hot mom...', 'nice man....' lucky guy....', and 'what position did u use in morning? normal or backfire....?'

What is the problem? If she doesn’t like it, she doesn’t have to read it. The blogger then invites her readers to “blast” the man.

As a victim of incest, I am..... ENRAGED. CONFUSED. SPEECHLESS. DISGUSTED.

We’re talking about two different things. Apparently, MissSwatty was molested or raped, and that’s horrible. That’s not what the man in India is talking about. He has consensual sex with his mother. This is like a man getting angry about someone talking about gay sex because he was once assaulted by another man. We are comparing tasty apples to rotten oranges here.

She goes on to post correspondence between them where she asserts that what he’s doing is digusting. Judgmental, much?

Three Years in Jail For Consensual Sex

To update this situation in Singapore, a man is going to jail for three years for having consensual sex with his daughter, who was 20 at the time.

Deputy Public Prosecutor Leong Wing Tuck said on one night in April 2008, both returned home after a beer drinking session. The accused's wife was not at home. While the accused was lying in bed, a small argument broke out between them when she showed little interest in talking to him as she was busy checking her e-mails on the laptop computer at the edge of the bed.

She apologised, and he asked her for a hug. They began caressing each other. They then had sex. A week later, they had a heated argument over the issue of her furthering her studies. She then texted a friend to call the police, who arrested him.

A sad situation. If he had agreed to have sex with only his wife, then he betrayed his wife. Either way, this should not have been a criminal matter. Looks like a young woman mad at her parent decided to use an unjust law against him.

Indiana Man Gets Prison Time For Incest

Anthoney Sims, 23, or Terre Haute, had been found guilty of rape and incest charges. If I recall correctly from previous coverage, one of his parents caught Sims with his sister.

During his sentencing hearing, Sims' father testified for the defense asking for lenience in the sentencing because it's become a family tragedy. He also stated he's "not sure rape occurred."

Is the father in denial? Is his son a monster? Or do we have a situation here in which shock of the parent resulted in a call to the police, and once the police were involved the sister had the option of either admitting to what is still a serious crime (consensual incest) or covering her own rear by telling the police it wasn’t consensual (= rape)? It is easy to imagine someone being caught by a disapproving parent having sex with a sibling and affirming the parent's assumption that it must have been a sexual assault. It is easy to imagine someone would be reluctant to tell a police officer, a judge, or a jury that they were willingly engaging in a felony by having consensual sex with a sibling, especially given the social bigotry towards people who do such things, in addition to the law against it. Maybe this really was a rape, but given the situation, there is an opening for a false conviction.

This article clarifies the sentencing…

A Terre Haute man convicted by a jury of rape received a 16-year prison sentence Wednesday in Vigo Superior Court 6.

Anthony Sims, 23, also received a five-year sentence for the Dec. 1 incest conviction, but that sentence will be served at the same time as the rape sentence.

But there’s more…

Judge Michael Lewis also recommended that Sims receive counseling for anger management and sex crimes during his prison stay, and ordered Sims to register as a sex offender.

He should have to register if he did raped her. The incest charge is superfluous, and someone who has consensual sex with another adult is not a threat to anyone.

In announcing the sentence, Lewis noted that Sims has had numerous run-ins with the law both as an adult and a juvenile.

Sounds like a troubled guy. It also sounds like the police and district attorney would be more apts to press for charges even if this wasn’t really a rape.

During the trial, the jury heard a taped interview with police in which Sims admitted that he had sex with a female relative in April 2009, and that he knew it was incest. But Sims said he did not rape her, and claimed that the sex was consensual.

The victim submitted a written statement to the court on Wednesday requesting leniency for Sims. But she also noted that she fears retaliation from family members if Sims were to receive a long prison sentence.

Is she like one of those abused wives who stick up for their batterers? The verdict on the rape charge would indicate that.

Defense attorney Christopher Shema called the case “one of the most sad” cases he has ever dealt with.

Shema had argued that the convictions of rape and incest were a double jeopardy issue for Sims, but Judge Lewis ruled against that.

Since both charges are felony sex crimes, Sims must serve 85 percent of the prison sentence. However, he will receive credit for the 654 days he has spent in the Vigo County jail on the charges.

Incest is a felony sex crime, even when everyone consents and enjoys it. How messed up is that? If not technically double jeopardy, the incest charge is indeed superfluous. The act is the very same thing for which he was convicted of rape.

Whatever the truth is in this case, a rapist should get serious prison time for the crime of rape. Consensual incest, or consanguineous sex, should not be illegal. Indiana needs to change its laws.

Uncle and Niece May Face Charges

An angry wife asked, “Can I press charges on my husband and his niece for incest in California?”

I caught my husband, 41 and his niece, 27 having an on going affair for quite some time. There are several witnesses to such disgusting act. The niece is my husband's brother's daughther. Can I press charges on them, since I read that incest is illegal in California and its a felony?

California does not criminalize adultery, but since California still criminalizes consensual sex between close relatives, it is left up to the local police and District Attorney. If this woman filed a police report, it could happen. Someone could be sent to jail for consensual sex. Hopefully, the authorities would do the reasonable thing and instead simply refer her to a divorce attorney, rather than wasting the criminal justice system's resources on consensual sex.

While I’m against cheating, I don’t think it should be a criminal matter and I don’t think any sex between consenting adults should be illegal. But certainly the law, as it is now, could come into play.

California also has no-fault divorce and community property. As such, if this woman’s husband earns more than she does, he would likely have to pay her if she divorced him, and see certainly should if she is so upset that she wants him criminally prosecuted.

She got some responses to her question, with some people mistakenly believing there was no law broken. Others clarified.

AFFA…

I wish to inform you that under California Code 285 your spouse may be held guilty of incest. In this regard you may file a complaint with law enforcement agencies. You will require evidence to be provided to police so that they may take necessary legal action.

Sunlover…

FC 2200 defines the relationships which are prohibited to marry and this, in turn, defines what would be considered incest.

2200. Marriages between parents and children, ancestors and descendants of every degree, and between brothers and sisters of the half as well as the whole blood, and between uncles and nieces or aunts and nephews, are incestuous, and void from the beginning, whether the relationship is legitimate or illegitimate.

As such, an uncle cannot marry his niece in CA and that such a sexual relationship (involving ONLY intercourse - not other sexual acts) would be incestuous and a crime per PC 285.

Can you believe such a law is on the books in California? Then again, so is Prop H8. Both should be scrapped.

When the Surrogate or Donor is Family

An anonymous comment alerted me to this article (thank you) about intrafamilial medically assisted reproduction (IMAR). It discusses a position paper published 20 January 2011 by the European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology (ESHRE). The context framing this is when unrelated spouses use a close relative of one of the spouses to assist in reproduction, but the issues are also relevant to those involved in consanguineous spousal relationships (such as, say, first cousins or a mother and son or a sister and brother) who want to have children.

The group advises to evaluate each request for IMAR individually, based on four ethical principles in health care: the respect for autonomy, beneficence and non-maleficence and justice.

That sounds reasonable.

The Task Force explains that the right for individual autonomy is elementary: any individual should have the principle of choice with whom to reproduce. It is understandable that couples wish to preserve some sort of genetic identity with the child, and hence may wish to choose a donor in the family.

I personally know a lesbian couple who had used sperm from a brother of one of the women. It is fairly common for same-sex couples or heterosexual couples experiencing infertility to involve a close relative in some way, whether as a surrogate mother, sperm donor, egg donor, or embryo donor.

In some countries IMAR is illegal and the relevant laws against incest and consanguinity apply to protect the offspring from genetic risks and to avoid possible social disruptions and conflicts.

Ridiculous. How about using genetic testing to avoid risks?

According to the principle of justice, doctors should treat similar cases in the same way. So if sister-to-sister oocyte donation is accepted so should brother-to-brother sperm donation.

This is fair.

The paper gives special attention to (rare) cases of consanguineous IMAR, involving the mixing of gametes of persons that are genetically closely related. "The Task Force considers consanguineous IMAR between up to third degree relatives as acceptable in principle, subject to additional counseling and risk-reduction," says Professor Guido de Wert, coordinator of the ESHRE Task Force. "Here, genetic counseling is appropriate to assess the increased risk of conceiving a child affected by a serious recessive disease."

With genetic counseling, there shouldn’t be any restriction on degree.

First-degree intergenerational IMAR needs special scrutiny, also in view of the increased risk of undermining autonomous choice. First- and second degree consanguineous IMAR is at odds with the spirit of anti-consanguinity and anti-incest legislation in most countries and should not be offered.

The laws should be changed.

In any general population the risk of having a child with a handicap or a major disease is 3%. In third degree consanguinity [such as between cousins], the risk is estimated to be around 5-6%. If the applicant and the intended collaborator carry the same disease, there is a 25% risk of conceiving a child affected with that particular condition.

I encourage anyone, even if they don’t believe they are closely related, to get tested before making children, and that would include testing any donated sperm or egg. Isn’t it good to know the risks ahead of time so that an informed decision can be made? Close relatives can and have had healthy babies together, but it is good to know the possibilities? You don’t have to get tested as a pair. You can get individual tests.

A Hypothetical About Consanguineous Sex

The Stig Mommy asked “What Would You Do?” Here’s the situation.

You meet your DH [Dear Husband], date for years, are madly in love and get married. You have four beautiful, smart, and healthy children. Your marriage is still strong after 15 years.

15 Years into your marriage you somehow discover that your DH’s father (who has passed away) had an affair and a love child from a disclosure by your MIL [Mother-In-Law]. The name of the other woman strikes a chord with you but you cannot remember where from. Weeks later it is still bugging you so you go digging. Turns out this woman is listed as your birth mother on your adoption papers. She too has passed away before you ever got a chance to meet her. You match the timelines up and it turns out YOU are that love child. Surprised

WWYD??

Tell your husband that you are actually brother and sister? Would you get a divorce? Stay together? What would you tell the kids? Or would you keep the whole thing a secret and sweep it under the rug? Please explain your reasoning.

So what would you do, dear reader?

I’m a male and not gay, so if I was a husband who had discovered this truth about my wife (that we were half-siblings) I would tell her only if I thought it would make her happier or have no effect. I would not tell her somethng like this if it would upset her, seeing that she could not do anything about it. But I wouldn’t be married to a woman who is grossed out by the very idea of consanguineous sex, and I’m sure she wouldn’t want to be married to me. So most likely, I would tell her. Nobody else necessarily needs to know. Notice that the children in this hypothetical are healthy.

What if you had to live with it as an open secret? As in everyone know that you are brother and sister and decided to stay married.

The problem there would be bigotry. But I would challenge the gossips to explain exactly what the problem is. It would provide many teachable moments, showing that such marriages can be lasting and happy.

Most respondents, by far, chose “Stay married but tell only DH the truth”.

There were a lot of comments.

Grinberga…

I would throw up..for weeks.

I understand that some people are turned off by certain things. For example, most heterosexual men do not care to think at all about male-on-male sex, and may even be grossed out by the idea. I understand that some people have that reaction when it comes to consanguineous sex. But wouldn’t the life and happiness built together mitigate that?

Amy1352…

You know, I would honestly tell my husband and then we'd probably sweep it under the rug. I don't think I would tell my kids at all.

Then I'd go into therapy.

Therapy? Why? To get over new negative feelings? Certainly not to get over having a great marriage.

MetaIMama…

I would divorce but remain friends, no reason to not have ANY relationship. I just couldn't live with the fact that I was married to my own brother.

Sad.

Skipper13…

I would keep it a secret, but I also would probably get a divorce. We can stay friends and parent the children, but I do not know that I could be comfortable being romantic with him ever again, that kind of ruins it for me.

Why? Think of it as finding out that something happened your husband when he was so young that he didn’t remember it. You find this thing to be a turn off. Would you really break up a good marriage over it?

The Stig Mommy checks back in…

DH says its way to gross and he would divorce.

That’s sad. She’d still be the same person he married.

emilysmom110405...

I actually know of a similar thing happening IRL. In this case, they were young adults (early 20s) and were not married, but were dating and the girl got pregnant. Her father passed away soon after she discovered her pregnancy. That's when all the family secrets came out. The boyfriend was either the son of her father or her father's father (could have been either as his mother was sleeping with both of them).

Interesting.

Buttercup+4…

The horse is already out of the barn. The four kids are born, and they are fine. . So there is no issue. .

I wouldn't care if I found out my husband was my fraternal twin and we were separated at birth.

There is true love.

Mommy_Pix…

After 15 yrs and four children, you have pretty much run the gamut, the only thing left is the empty nest/retirement. Why throw that away because of something you've found out AFTER all of that?

Yes.

How about you, dear reader? What would YOU do?

Prison Sentence in West Virginia Incest Case

Most news sources hide the identity of sex crime victims. Most news sources hide the identity of minor victims. We're never given the age of the supposed victim in this case. Overall, I find this coverage of the story to be deficient.

A father got his daughter pregnant, and she had the baby.

Larry Darby was sentenced to 15 to 35 years in jail for incest and sexual assault by a parent.

He was sentenced for "incest and sexual assault." Was the victim underage? Or was she an adult who consented. If she was an adult, the sexual assault charge would indicate she did not consent. Either the incest charge was superfluous, or there were consensual encounters that were incestuous, but did not fall under the sexual assault category. I wish we had clarification.

"I don't ever want to lie to my child," Aleena Jones said. "I'm scared to tell him the truth because I don't want him to hate me for what happened."

If she was coerced, she had nothing for which to apologize.

This is where we get some indication that there is more to this than consensual sex between adults (which should not be a crime at all):

The family says this isn't the first time he has had sexual contact with young girls.

"He was glaring at me the whole time I was up on the stand," Jones said. "It just made me feel even nastier."

The family says he's fondled another victim and has served time for it.

"My second daughter was involved in all of this, too, and he tried to do stuff to her, too," Kimberly Jones said.

"Young girls" would indicate minors to me. But we're never given ages for any of the girls.

Now, Darby will spend more than a decade in a cell, but with the possibility of parole.

"I'm not willing to take a chance on these types of people who engage in these types of crimes," Prosecutor Mark Plants said.

If Darby gets out, he will have to spend the next 50 years on supervised release.

It is bad enough the law isn't more precise when it comes to consenting adults vs. an adult preying on a minor, lumping both together as "incest." But the media does this as well. There should be more clarity in reporting. If this woman is a victim, her name should not have been published.

Woman's Incest Conviction Upheld in Canada

A mother, known as "B.D.", lost her appeal of her conviction on incest and other charges. The case developed after it was discovered that a child who died was the offspring of her and her 21-year-old son, who was also her husband. They have two other children together as well. The other criminal offenses included trying to forge birth certificates.

An autopsy revealed the girl who was brought to Cambridge Memorial Hospital one June morning in 2001 had died of natural causes. However, the glands on top of her kidneys were very thin.

It’s a condition that can result from incestuous conception.

Police grew suspicious and asked Ontario’s Centre of Forensic Sciences to set aside a sample of the girl’s blood for possible DNA testing.

The appeal was based on whether or not the police should have been allowed to do that.

The 21-year-old man who brought the child to hospital had identified himself as her brother.

But the girl’s mother, then 47, claimed he was her husband.

As it turns out, both were right.

Until the laws change, it would be good to avoid self-incrimination.

On Thursday, the Ontario Court of Appeal upheld her convictions for incest in a case Justice Robert Blair described as giving “new meaning to the word bizarre.”

People used to think interracial and same-sex marriage were "bizarre" too. But we've overcome such bigotry.

Hindered by a Hang-Up

GeneticSexualAttraction.com is a site for people who may be experiencing GSA or others who have concerns because someone in their lives may be experiencing GSA. There are some very helpful people there, helping people through all sorts of agony. There are also varied opinions on GSA held by the participants there. Some people there discourage any romantic or sexual relationships between close relatives, others are supportive of such relationships. Some people there are involved in such relationships and are happy, but the nature and tone of the website more often draws people in which at least one person in the relationship is struggling under the weight of societal conditioning that has taught them that such relationships are wrong. An example of that is seen in the first posting in this thread by “lostdaughter”.

She is 29 years old, and explains that her mother’s actions separated her from her biological father when she was just six months old. This past Christmas she was reunited with her father, who is now 50 years of age, and after about three weeks things progressed.

Its been very exciting...very "normal" - until 2 days ago ...things changed...
we went out for drinks and we were dancing...and i got very close...and well...he got excited...but nothing happened. later at home we started kissing. He felt bad. He has four other children...other daughters...but had never done anything like this with them. But I never had a father...and didnt feel any boundary issues.

I consider myself to be a very open minded person. Including sexual behaviours...but I never thought i would be doing anything with a father (that i never had).

it felt so right...kissing and touching each other...eventually we went upstairs to a bedroom - and we had sexual intercourse including - both of us gave/received oral sex.

he felt very guilty in the morning. I talked with him. I told him, we were both consenting adults, I am not 3 yrs old, I am almost 30. and if we enjoyed it - then there is nothing wrong. He said it wasnt normal and he felt guilty. I asked him if he enjoyed it and got a bit worried...perplexed....why I wanted to know? I asked him again, and he said YES, but he felt guilty about liking it. I told him I didnt. I told him perhaps it just society who says those things - and we shouldnt listen to it. I told him he doesnt see me like his other daughters because he didnt raise me....etc. He felt a little less guilty. I honestly enjoyed it very much, and I wanted to happen again. He said no, the first should be the last time. but we talked about it whether thats what HE wanted for himself or because thats what society told him to want. He confessed it was because of the "society"...that he enjoyed it very much and he would make love to me again. So we did again last night. the first time we had drank some...but last night we were completely sober. and we both enjoyed it.

She describes a situation that involves consensual sex between adults; something enjoyable to both. Nobody should be feeling guilty. This is where the condemnation of the “sex police” impedes the happiness of others even without getting the real police involved.

i do not have any feelings of guilt but i know he has...he thinks he shouldnt want to have sex with me. I told him its normal he doesnt see me as a daughter and sees me as a 29 yr old woman. I find him so attractive (he is very fit and doesnt look his age). He does tell me he enjoys me very much - but just feels guilty and thinks about other people finding out.

Other people should not be giving people like this a hard time. The guilt-trips people try to give others starts with condemning appreciation for the human body and condemning masturbation and doesn’t stop, continuing on to condemning relationships between mature, idependendent, consenting adults. Love is love, and what consenting adults do in a bedroom is their own concern.

Siblings in Love

Amanda wrote at Yahoo Answers…

My best friend does incest with her brother?
I was at my best friend's house and I accidentally caught my best friend(15 year old) having sex with her older brother(17). Which I know is wrong, but they begged me not to tell anyone.
Now that I know their secret and think they can trust me, they aren't afraid to actually make out(kiss) in front of me.Which I am still not used to the idea, but I know if I tell my best friend is going to get in trouble.

She chose this answer from kstahl as the best…

I think the only real issue here that has any substantive importance is whether they are both fully consensual with what they doing. The secondary issue would be whether they are using adequate birth control. Beyond that it just devolves into various legal matters (incest is illegal in the U.S.) and psychological matters with some crossover into sociological issues. But generally I would say that if they are both full participants and enjoy what they are doing together and they do more to keep it private, then no real harm is being done.

Amanda should not gossip about her friends, and there is no need to tell anyone, since this is a mutal relationship. I’m not clear if she is generally turned off by “public displays of affection,” or if she is bothered by it in this case because she thinks what her friends are doing is wrong. If it is the latter, then she’ll get used to it and see that her initial reaction is mistaken. These are siblings who love each other and care about each other, not strangers at a party.

The always thoughtful Natalie Underwood wrote…

Well, if you get them in trouble it won't help them, and they will just resent you. It could wind up tearing apart their family if you do. But if you drop them as friends it won't help them either, and it will just make them afraid you will hurt them. So stay friends, but learn what you can about incest - there are lots of places you can google to find more information. Then talk to them about it.

Be careful not to be judgmental, or they won't listen. Just give them information, try to help and keep them safe. Ask them why they started having sex, and when. Find out what makes them do it.

SIX PAK wrote…

Keep the details to yourself.

Yes.

This is not uncommon believe it or not.

No, it isn’t.

As they experiment in sex now they will stop on their own.

Maybe. Maybe not.

No one said it is OK.

Of course it is okay, if this is what they’ve chosen.

The fact that they were kissing in front of you tells me they like the shock value.

Maybe they wanted her to join in?

A bigot wrote…

you have to tell someone and its needs to be your parents first. They need to let you friend parents know and get both of them help. It is not normal to have sex with a family member and it has to be stopped.

Yes, and don’t forget to tell them that they’ll go blind if they masturbate.

Be Reasonable

Incest laws were debated in a discussion online at the Richard Dawkins Foundation. The recent Swiss proposal to decriminalize sex between consenting adults was used as the starting point.

A spokesman for the upper house said - quite rightly and justly in my opinion - that the often-cited eugenic reason for a law against incest is not something that a civilized society can use as a basis for a law. After all no one seriously considers punishing the drinking of alcohol during pregnancy, or sex between partners who both have a history of genetic defects in their respective family backgrounds. The abuse argument also doesn't carry us very far, since sexual abuse, coercion and rape are already illegal.

Yes, this is exactly right.

Are there any rational moral reasons for upholding this law against what some consider the last sexual taboo?

No.

CallumW…

I don't really see how a relationship or sex between relatives could be morally wrong if both consent and are uncoerced, however the incidence of genetic disease in inbred families when parents are only cousins is much higher than those with access to a more diverse gene pool, and if siblings were to produce offspring the risk would be greater again. This doesn't really seem fair on the children of such a union. But then to legally ban people from having children in circumstances when the risk of genetic disease is particularly high seems to be a gross infringement of their human rights.

Rtambree…

Sexual acts and procreation are two different things.

Right again!

Still, people tried the “deformed babies” argument, so this comment was made by MMAtheist…

Since the concern about birth defects is predictably the big issue here, I'll repeat my question to everyone: should we also start regulating against older women giving birth to children?

"The British Down's Syndrome Association has posted a chart showing the risk of producing a baby with the syndrome at various maternal ages. From age 20 to age 31, the risk doubles. From 31 to 35, it doubles again. From 35 to 38, it doubles again. From 38 to 41, it more than doubles again."

What about smoking and drinking when you're pregnant? Is that illegal in your country? Shouldn't it be if your #1 concern is birth defects?

Jice…

"Because it makes me feel iky," seems to be the only deffence I see, which flat out is on the same page as religious thinking that your view is supperior to that of thoes providing the consent.

Sex /= offspring. We aren't the catholic church here, we allow contriception.

To set a precident that it's ok to legislate against couples who might have children with birth defects is wrong in any free country. Who makes the decision? If I had a certain gene that would give my baby a 20% chance to be born with Crie-de-chat should I be legislated against, reguardless of who my partner is? Because of a slim chance that if I even have a child (gay) that it has a slim chance to not be perfectly healthy?

And what about gay incest? Any arguments about genetics fly out the window in that case and now all you're doing is legislating against brothers/sisters who like to have a close relationship that includes sexual activity.

And I don't really think age plays much of a factor either. If they are 12, it's just the same curiosity we all grew up with which could amount to a few encounters, and if they are 16, then they are adult enough to make up thier own minds and shouldn't have to be worried about going to jail because they enjoy themselves. Anything younger and they probably haven't even hit puberty and it's completely innocent. And if there is an age gap, say 12 and 18, then it's already illegal through other laws.

The only potential I can see for this law is to double charge sex offenders, of the variety in which paretns molest thier childern. Yes, it's incest, but it's also pedophelia which unless Swiss are all ok with that, is probably still illegal, and still carries the same penalties.

Double dipping laws like this don't help prevent crime, or help the victims of thoes crimes. They just make criminals out of otherwise innocent people whos only crime was to not hurt anyone while doing what they like.

Very well said.

Debonnesnouvelles…

In the rare case where an adult decides that he/she wants to have a relationship with another consenting grown up relative, would the law in this case not infringe on their rights not to be discriminated against?

The law already is in place to punish abusers. Should it punish people who are in a rare position of quite genuinely wanting to love someone they are not supposed to love?

Absolutely not.

Debonnesnouvelles looks at Saletan’s argument…

How would "confusing the relationships" provide a rational basis for laws against incest in view of a constitution? Is confusing relationships a crime?

Foundationist follows up…

I can well imagine a scenario where an incestuous relationship might be perfectly healthy, normal and indeed even psychologically beneficial for the couple. So could countless authors and dramatists through the ages who liked to toy with that taboo.

Yes. Just take a look here (NSFW text).

Punishing incest as a criminal offence in itself seems to be based on numerous preconceived notions and prejudices, especially when the law is unspecified enough to even apply to, say, a lesbian affair between adult half-sisters with a small age gap.

The comments I read did not contain any solid reason to deny the right of consenting adults to love, sex, and marriage simply because they are close relatives. There were many comments from allies.

He Has a Girlfriend, But is Still Active With Sister, Mother

This guy is a senior at a university and has a girlfriend he wants to marry, but he’s been keeping a secret from her.

I am into incest. Not in a fetish or fantasy way, but as a lifestyle. My sister who is a year younger than me and I have been having sex since I was sixteen and she was fifteen. About a year after we started our mom caught us in the act. Instead of being upset mom said something about her always wanting this to happen, then she asked if she could join us.

He goes on to write that with varying frequency, he’s been having sex with his sister and sex with his mother ever since.

Should I tell my girlfriend. Should I invite her to participate. I love her, but I still have strong family love for both my mom and my sister. Think of it this way, my love for my mom and sis are probably the same as yours for your mom and the rest of your immediate family. The only difference is the I have sex with my family. I never thought of sex with mom or my sister as “cheating” on my girlfriend.

I know some people see it that way, but I think if his girlfriend believes they have agreed to strict monogamy or wants to know about any other current sex partners, then I think he is cheating on his girlfriend. He doesn’t make it clear his mother and sister know about his girlfriend, and so he could very well be cheating on them, as well. But I think the silence about that implies that his sister and mother are aware of his relationship with his girlfriend.

He certainly should not marry his girlfriend without her being aware of and agreeable to any ongoing sexual relationship with anyone else. That means he does have the option of ending the sex with his sister and mother, or telling his girlfriend what is going on. I’d say there is what would be a minority chance she will agree to marry him (or stay with him at all) if he tells her what has been going on. The chance is even smaller that she’d be agreeable to this continuing, and even smaller that she would join in. If she would join in (and his sister and mother would likewise be agreeable) than he’d be quite a lucky guy. It isn’t unheard of for someone to agree to share a person with two of the person’s relatives, though each situation is different.

I have to wonder if this would be an issue if we had full marriage equality. Perhaps the writer would marry his sister, his mother, or both?

John Z told the writer to stop having sex with his sister and mother…

Although I don’t personally know anybody who has had vaginal intercourse with their mothers, I do have two friends, each of whom had a sexual relationship with their sisters during high school. Both of these guys are in very secure marriages (both now over 30 years), have children, and have been very successful in life. I had no knowledge of their incestuous relationships until well after college when each of them told me about it (one, because I lusted after his sister in high school and he was aware of it… lucky guy!). So, it is isn’t impossible to end an incestuous relationship.

Of course it isn’t impossible. It isn’t necessary in many cases where others advise it, but it is possible.

While John Z was neutral about the consanguineous sex, the other two responses were from bigots.