Mackenzie Phillips Book Update

Mackenzie Phillips has a paperback edition of her book hitting stores soon, with updates, including her family’s reaction to her writing and speaking of having a sexual relationship with her father.

It would be interesting for an objective party to go through how the delivery of her message has changed in response to media reaction.

I’m not privy to the specific dynamics of her relationship with her father, but in general, a woman should be able to write and talk about having a consensual sexual relationship with her father (or mother, sister, brother, etc.) without being trashed or told she’s mistaken about her consent or feelings about it, and without the deceased person being trashed.

Three Years in Jail For Consensual Sex

To update this situation in Singapore, a man is going to jail for three years for having consensual sex with his daughter, who was 20 at the time.

Deputy Public Prosecutor Leong Wing Tuck said on one night in April 2008, both returned home after a beer drinking session. The accused's wife was not at home. While the accused was lying in bed, a small argument broke out between them when she showed little interest in talking to him as she was busy checking her e-mails on the laptop computer at the edge of the bed.

She apologised, and he asked her for a hug. They began caressing each other. They then had sex. A week later, they had a heated argument over the issue of her furthering her studies. She then texted a friend to call the police, who arrested him.

A sad situation. If he had agreed to have sex with only his wife, then he betrayed his wife. Either way, this should not have been a criminal matter. Looks like a young woman mad at her parent decided to use an unjust law against him.

More About West Virginia Incest Case

This article gives more information about this case.

A Rand man pleaded guilty to incest in Kanawha Circuit Court, admitting he had sex with his daughter, subsequently impregnating her.

Larry William Darby, 41, told Judge James Stucky, "I had sex with my daughter and we had a baby."

Darby said the girl was 19 when the sexual act occurred between them last year at their home in Rand.

He said? Isn’t this verifiable by doing simple math?

When asked how many children he had, Darby replied he had four -- aged 21, 20, 16 and a newborn.

Asked if he was married, Darby replied that he would be divorced as of Tuesday.

Darby also pleaded guilty to sexual abuse by a parent, guardian or person in a position of trust. That charge pertains to his 16-year-old stepdaughter, whose breasts he touched when she was 14 years old.

It is any wonder his marriage is ending?

In exchange for his guilty plea, prosecutors will not seek an enhanced sentence based on Darby's past felony record, which involves sexual abuse charges in Indiana.

Stucky will sentence Darby Jan. 12. He faces a possible five- to 15-year prison sentence on the incest charge and a 10- to 20-year prison sentence on the sexual abuse charge.

He should be locked up for a long time for anything he’s done to a minor. There should be no charge for any consensual sex involving adults. If he forced himself on an adult, he should be charged for rape or sexual assault for that.

Prison Sentence in West Virginia Incest Case

Most news sources hide the identity of sex crime victims. Most news sources hide the identity of minor victims. We're never given the age of the supposed victim in this case. Overall, I find this coverage of the story to be deficient.

A father got his daughter pregnant, and she had the baby.

Larry Darby was sentenced to 15 to 35 years in jail for incest and sexual assault by a parent.

He was sentenced for "incest and sexual assault." Was the victim underage? Or was she an adult who consented. If she was an adult, the sexual assault charge would indicate she did not consent. Either the incest charge was superfluous, or there were consensual encounters that were incestuous, but did not fall under the sexual assault category. I wish we had clarification.

"I don't ever want to lie to my child," Aleena Jones said. "I'm scared to tell him the truth because I don't want him to hate me for what happened."

If she was coerced, she had nothing for which to apologize.

This is where we get some indication that there is more to this than consensual sex between adults (which should not be a crime at all):

The family says this isn't the first time he has had sexual contact with young girls.

"He was glaring at me the whole time I was up on the stand," Jones said. "It just made me feel even nastier."

The family says he's fondled another victim and has served time for it.

"My second daughter was involved in all of this, too, and he tried to do stuff to her, too," Kimberly Jones said.

"Young girls" would indicate minors to me. But we're never given ages for any of the girls.

Now, Darby will spend more than a decade in a cell, but with the possibility of parole.

"I'm not willing to take a chance on these types of people who engage in these types of crimes," Prosecutor Mark Plants said.

If Darby gets out, he will have to spend the next 50 years on supervised release.

It is bad enough the law isn't more precise when it comes to consenting adults vs. an adult preying on a minor, lumping both together as "incest." But the media does this as well. There should be more clarity in reporting. If this woman is a victim, her name should not have been published.

Hindered by a Hang-Up

GeneticSexualAttraction.com is a site for people who may be experiencing GSA or others who have concerns because someone in their lives may be experiencing GSA. There are some very helpful people there, helping people through all sorts of agony. There are also varied opinions on GSA held by the participants there. Some people there discourage any romantic or sexual relationships between close relatives, others are supportive of such relationships. Some people there are involved in such relationships and are happy, but the nature and tone of the website more often draws people in which at least one person in the relationship is struggling under the weight of societal conditioning that has taught them that such relationships are wrong. An example of that is seen in the first posting in this thread by “lostdaughter”.

She is 29 years old, and explains that her mother’s actions separated her from her biological father when she was just six months old. This past Christmas she was reunited with her father, who is now 50 years of age, and after about three weeks things progressed.

Its been very exciting...very "normal" - until 2 days ago ...things changed...
we went out for drinks and we were dancing...and i got very close...and well...he got excited...but nothing happened. later at home we started kissing. He felt bad. He has four other children...other daughters...but had never done anything like this with them. But I never had a father...and didnt feel any boundary issues.

I consider myself to be a very open minded person. Including sexual behaviours...but I never thought i would be doing anything with a father (that i never had).

it felt so right...kissing and touching each other...eventually we went upstairs to a bedroom - and we had sexual intercourse including - both of us gave/received oral sex.

he felt very guilty in the morning. I talked with him. I told him, we were both consenting adults, I am not 3 yrs old, I am almost 30. and if we enjoyed it - then there is nothing wrong. He said it wasnt normal and he felt guilty. I asked him if he enjoyed it and got a bit worried...perplexed....why I wanted to know? I asked him again, and he said YES, but he felt guilty about liking it. I told him I didnt. I told him perhaps it just society who says those things - and we shouldnt listen to it. I told him he doesnt see me like his other daughters because he didnt raise me....etc. He felt a little less guilty. I honestly enjoyed it very much, and I wanted to happen again. He said no, the first should be the last time. but we talked about it whether thats what HE wanted for himself or because thats what society told him to want. He confessed it was because of the "society"...that he enjoyed it very much and he would make love to me again. So we did again last night. the first time we had drank some...but last night we were completely sober. and we both enjoyed it.

She describes a situation that involves consensual sex between adults; something enjoyable to both. Nobody should be feeling guilty. This is where the condemnation of the “sex police” impedes the happiness of others even without getting the real police involved.

i do not have any feelings of guilt but i know he has...he thinks he shouldnt want to have sex with me. I told him its normal he doesnt see me as a daughter and sees me as a 29 yr old woman. I find him so attractive (he is very fit and doesnt look his age). He does tell me he enjoys me very much - but just feels guilty and thinks about other people finding out.

Other people should not be giving people like this a hard time. The guilt-trips people try to give others starts with condemning appreciation for the human body and condemning masturbation and doesn’t stop, continuing on to condemning relationships between mature, idependendent, consenting adults. Love is love, and what consenting adults do in a bedroom is their own concern.

Lawrence Should Protect Epstein

Matthew J. Franck is bothered by David Epstein’s love life and the reaction of the public to the filing of criminal charges against Epstein. He especially considers William Saletan’s reaction. Franck appears to be not only against the right of consenting adults to consanguineous love and sex, but against gay sex and love. But even if he is antiequality, he makes some good points later in his essay.

Liberal writers have a startling inability to articulate what’s wrong with a prominent professor’s incestuous relationship with his daughter.

So do writers who aren’t “liberal,” because we don’t know the internal dymanics of the relationship in question well enough to be able to say something is wrong with it. We can look at a unrelated heterosexual couple who are the same age, and see that there’s something wrong with the relationship if one is abusing the other in front of our eyes. For all we know, David Epstein and his daughter have a very loving, happy relationship.

It is almost equally disturbing that a legal argument for a “right” to engage in adult, consensual incest stands on surprisingly firm footing, thanks to precedents the United States Supreme Court has already established in other cases on the “autonomy of the person” under our Constitution.

It is disturbing that someone should be able to make decisions about her own body and with whom she shares it?

So powerful is the contemporary opinion that “consenting adults” may engage, in private, in any acts that commit no “harm” (narrowly understood in almost purely physical terms) to the parties in question or to others, that some observers have merely shrugged indifferently at the Epstein case, while others have striven to find grounds for condemning such incestuous acts but finally confessed their failure to find them.

I can find so much material from men and women, simply by searching online, who were in heterosexual, supposedly monogamous relationships with someone who wasn’t a close a relative who claim they were, and seem to have been, deeply hurt as a result of those relationships. Some go through years of therapy as a result. But we don’t criminalize these relationships, and I doubt Franck would say all such relationships are morally wrong.

Franck cites C.S. Lewis’ book The Four Loves.

Lewis’s four forms of love are affection (the Greek storgē), friendship (philia), sexual or romantic love (eros), and charity or Christian love (agapē). Here we may stick to the first three—the “natural loves,” Lewis calls them—and observe that they are not so much variations of one thing as different species of love. Each has its own integrity, and is in an important way constitutive of human happiness. Some overlap among or progression through the various loves is possible, of course. Married couples, for instance, may begin as friends, become lovers, and finally find their relationship cemented in bonds of affection, that “humblest love” that as often as not involves a great deal of “taking for granted.”

But while such overlap is appropriate in some instances, in others it is inappropriate—indeed, it can be an outrage to mix loves or for one to intrude upon another.

Even if we pretend that Lewis’ book constitutes the basis for our laws, There is no reason why we should be certain overlap is not appropriate in the relationship between Epstein and his daughter, nor reason that it should be illegal.

Introduce the element of eros, however, and affection is not reinforced; it is destroyed, and replaced by something unnatural to the relationship in its proper sense.

There’s that “sex is destructive” idea again. Maybe these guys are doing it wrong.

He continues, bemoaning the Supreme Court’s actions in Lawrence v. Texas, rightly noting that the decision should invalidate laws against poly and consanguineous relationships in addition to protecting the right to same-sex relationships.

In its 2003 decision in Lawrence v. Texas, invalidating laws against homosexual sodomy, the Court referred to “an emerging awareness that liberty gives substantial protection to adult persons in deciding how to conduct their private lives in matters pertaining to sex.”

He includes a quote from Justice Anthony Kennedy. Notice how this could be written of the Epstein case, if you replace “homosexual” with “consanguineous”…

The present case does not involve minors. It does not involve persons who might be injured or coerced or who are situated in relationships where consent might not easily be refused. It does not involve public conduct or prostitution. It does not involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter. The case does involve two adults who, with full and mutual consent from each other, engaged in sexual practices common to a homosexual lifestyle. The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives. The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime. Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.

So why is Epstein facing charges? Franck gets it right when he says…

As I had occasion to write several years ago in the context of another case of incest, if this is sound constitutional reasoning about the “liberty” protected by the due process clause, then it is as sound for the invalidation of incest laws as it is for the invalidation of sodomy laws.

He returns to Saletan…

What we must notice is that Saletan’s strictures against incest rest on moral arguments of a kind that the Supreme Court has already rejected in the Lawrence case.

And if Saletan or anyone else wants to live that way, they are free to do so, but demanding others do so is another matter. More and more people, when they think through it, realize that not only decriminalization, but full marriage equality makes sense.

Bigotry Expressed

Elie Mystal is upset at David Epstein’s lawyer Matthew Galluzzo.

Coercion is inherent in every case of parent/child incest. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

It is clear for the context that she is talking about adults. How can she make such an assertion? There’s no way she knows the dynamics of every single relationship. She is like the racist who says that every interracial relationship is about rebelling against parents, or the rare lesbian who says that all male-female sex is rape. It is insulting. It is telling that throughout her editorial, which is a lot of bluster but little substance, she writes about father-daughter relationships. Not a word about mother-son, mother-daughter, or father-son. I wonder why? Nor does she address other consanguineous relationships outlawed in some or most places, such a between siblings, cousins, uncle/aunts and nephews/nieces (especially those close in age).

Epstein’s daughter is as much of an accomplice as a rape victim who was wearing a low-cut blouse is an accomplice.

This kind of talk is demeaning to people who have been subjected to rape. What doe she know about Epstein’ daughter and her relationship with her father?

I don’t care if she’s 50 when the incest happens. At the end of the day, children do not have the capacity to choose to have sex with their parents, simply because the parent/child relationship ruins the capacity for consent.

Much repetition, no evidence.

You can’t have sex with your children. You also can’t have sex with anybody who is below the age of legal consent. Are these hard rules to follow?

That’s a nice try at guilt by association, trying to link consensual sex between adults to statutory rape or child rape.

By this reasoning, all parents of adult criminals should be tried for the crimes as well, especially if they gave any indication that they approved of the crimes. Depending on how supportive the parents were of the criminal acitivity, their adult children shouldn’t be prosecuted.

The truth is, some adults consent to have sex with relatives, including parents. You do not have to like that, but it should not be against the law.

Nebraska Charges Mother With Incest

It’s a little difficult to know for sure what is really going on in this case out of Nebraska. After her husband was arrested on an incest charge, Teresa Holloway was recently charged with incest. They were accused by their adult daughter.

She alleged that she had a sexual relationship with her father and mother beginning when she was 14, police said. She further stated that the relationship continued through her adult years.

If what she says is true, they should be prosecuted for child rape, child molestation, statutory rape, or whatever law would apply. The incest charge is superfluous.

Dennis Holloway maintained that it did not take place until the victim was 18. Incest is a class-three felony and could land the Holloways in jail for 20 years.

If he is telling the truth, this should not be a crime unless there was force or coercion. Of course, people who prey on minors are often liars in addition to being the scum of the earth. But if he is telling the truth, this could be a daughter who is angry with her parents for other reasons.

The larger issue is this. Rape, statutory rape, sexual assault, and molestation laws are what are needed to protect adults and children. There shouldn’t be a law that criminalizes consensual sex involving adults, even if they are closely related.

Will This Be Lawrence For Consanguineous Lovers?

I’ve been thinking for a while now that the way the freedom of association and the freedom marry for consanguineous lovers will become a reality in the US through some connected and accomplished couples challenging incest laws that prevent consensual sex between adults, and challenging bigoted attitudes. Will Columbia University professor David Epstein’s case be the Lawrence vs. Texas for consanguineous lovers? Will enough people finally see that, even if they don’t like the thought of it, there’s as little justification for criminalizing consensual sex between adults relatives as there is between criminalizing sex between unrelated adults of the same sex, or any other consenting adults, for that matter?

The New York Daily News had the earliest coverage I’ll examine here.

A popular Columbia professor was charged Thursday with incest - accused of a sick sex relationship with a female relative, prosecutors said.

Sick? Bigoted, much?

Political science Prof. David Epstein, 46, bedded the young woman over a three-year period ending last year, according to court papers.

He was arraigned before a Manhattan judge on a single felony incest count.

It is ridiculous to prosecute someone for consensual sex with another adult.

Epstein, who specializes in American politics and voting rights, has taught at Harvard and Stanford and often is quoted by news organizations. He also has blogged on The Huffington Post.

Professor Epstein, challenge the law. If anyone can make a good case, it will be you. Let’s show the world that this has nothing to do with ignorant preditors attacking children. Educated, cultured people can have a loving relationship like this. Let’s get the distinction firmly established dividing consensual sex between adults from child abuse.

Sources said the victim was over 18 when the relationship began in 2006 and that the two often exchanged twisted text messages.

Twisted? Your bigotry is showing, NYDN.

Epstein faces up to four years behind bars if convicted.

Outrageous. She was 20 or 21 when this allegedly began. Why is this a criminal matter?

From The Huffington Post…

The Spectator reports that Epstein is married to another Columbia political science professor, Sharyn O'Halloran, though a recent update to his Facebook page says he is single.

Could this be the source of the criminal charges? An upset estranged wife?

Law professor Ann Althouse quotes the Supreme Court on the Lawrence vs. Texas case and concludes…

according to Justice Scalia, under the existing precedent, consensual adult incest cannot survive rational-basis review.

Let’s hope Scalia and the rest of the Supreme Court will keep that in mind when they have to decide.

Bridgette P. LaVictoire shows a lack of solidarity and throws consanguineous lovers under the bus, at least ones who aren’t same-sex.

Incest is still illegal in the United States, incidentally, and Mr. Epstein faces four years in jail if convicted.

Gay sex used to be illegal, too. So what? Laws can be changed.

Incest is considered taboo in pretty much every society humans have ever created, at least close incest such as mother-son, father-daughter, sister-brother, etc.

I don’t know where she gets that, considering how many royals engaged in it, and how many siblings experiment today. But again, the same was once said of gay sex. It all goes back to heterosexuals trying to consolidate power through arranged marriages.

In fact, humans, and just about all animals, are programmed to avoid direct mating with someone in that immediate circle because doing so is very detrimental to the gene pool.

Most sex does not result in a live birth. Most sex is not intended to. She, strangely, is making a “sex is for procreation” argument.

Smkovalinsky called her out…

Many people are “grossed out” by gay sex, but does this mean it ought to be illegal? Gay relations and incest relations are in NO way connected or similar, but the “gross out” factor should have nothing to do with whether or not they are deemed lawful. The professor and his daughter were in fact 2 consenting adults.

Bridgette P. LaVictoire replied…

Apparently you did not read what I wrote. Incidentally, it has been argued that no matter how consensual the incestuous relationship, it is never truly consensual.

All kinds of nonsense has been “argued.” What an ineffective excuse for bigotry.

Smkovalinsky again…

I did read in full what you said. Yes, the bigot was wrong: One being pro gay does not mean that one will support the professor. And yet, not long ago, many recoiled at gay sex, in the same way they now do at incest. The woman was 24: She had rights as well as duties, and we are autonomous over the age of 18, in the eyes of the law. Of course his being her father adds a coercive element, but she is well aware of this, and that she has every right to turn him away. Let’s hear what she has to say, and why she too is not being arrested, as she is an adult who has committed the crime of incest. In some scholarly camps, it has been argued that the gay identity is a coerced one for many; in my opinion, and I am sure yours as well, that is untrue and insulting. See also “Genetic Sexual Attraction”.

Bridgette P. LaVictoire…

I am more than aware of the argument behind Genetic Sexual Attraction, and that there is little to no proof of it existing.

She has her head in the sand.

My point is not to argue for or against incest here, but that there are not a lot of people clamoring for it to be legal.

That doesn’t mean it should be illegal. It just means that the civil rights groups have been derelict in this area. She went on to threaten Smkovalinsky with being banned for embarrassing her. It’s so sad when people who know what it is like to deal with bigotry perpetuate or stay silent about it themselves.

Consanguineous Sex Among the Elites

Much is being made of the arrest of Columbia University professor David Epstein's arrest on incest charges for having consensual sex with his adult daughter.

I've been a little busy. I plan to have a good look here on Monday (tomorrow) at both the situation and the reaction to it. There is much to write.

Chynna Talks Mackenzie

One of the people Joy Behar had on her show last night was Chynna Phillips. Behar asked Chynna about her sister Mackenzie Phillips’ statement that she has a sexual relationship with their father.

BEHAR: It`s brutal to find -- did you believe her?

CHYNNA PHILLIPS: Well, yes.

BEHAR: You did?

CHYNNA PHILLIPS: Yes.

BEHAR: I believe her.

CHYNNA PHILLIPS: Yes.

BEHAR: Why would she make up something --

CHYNNA PHILLIPS: You have to be crazy. (INAUDIBLE). Who`s going to do that?

BEHAR: When you think of it, though, it`s your father, you know?

CHYNNA PHILLIPS: Yes.

BEHAR: It must make you wonder about him your whole life.

CHYNNA PHILLIPS: Well, I was not raised with my dad.

BEHAR: Lucky.

CHYNNA PHILLIPS: Yes. My father was a very talented, very creative, very wonderful man. He really was. The only thing was that he had a very serious heroin addiction.

It is clear that Chynna and Joy are against a father and adult dauther having sex. That last statement from Chynna implies that she chalks up the sex to her father’s heroin addiction.

I’ve never tried heroin, so maybe I’ve wrong, but I don’t think it causes people to have sex with each other if they otherwise wouldn’t. If a "straight" man blamed alchohol for him having sex with another man, would you buy it?

If it happened, and only one living person knows for sure, then her father wanted to have sex with her sister. On some level, her sister wanted it, too. You can make a case for either of them having reduced capacity, but the desire must have been there on some level.

Missouri Misery

Here’s yet another story from March of 2009 about consenting adults being prosecuted for having sex. I guess there must have been something going on that month among prosecutors.

Washington County Prosecuting Attorney John Rupp has charged a man and woman for having sex with each other.

I’m glad the reporter worded it that way. Kudos to Teresa Ressel.

According to the charge filed in Associate Circuit Court this week, the man and woman are father and daughter and they have a child together.

So what?

William Isgriggs, 46, and Kerri R. Isgriggs, 25, both of a Steelville address, have been charged with incest. Kerri Isgriggs has also been charged with second-degree assault.

The incest charges allege that the two engaged in a sexual relationship, knowing they were daughter and father. The relationship resulted in the birth of a child.

The assault charge alleges Kerri Isgriggs caused serious injury to a child by throwing the child from a standing position onto a wooden framed toddler bed. The impact caused the child to fracture a leg.

Can you spot the real crime? Yes, that’s right, assaulting a child. That should bring the law down on someone, not sex.

The criminal case and the article should have been entirely about child abuse. Whether or not consenting adults are having sex with each other should not be the business of prosecutors.

Old Consensual Sex Case Prosecuted Recently

I found another story from March of last year that seems strange. An elderly Pulaski County (Kentucky) man was charged with a crime for having sex with his daughter two decades ago, when she was an adult.

Police have said the case began in 2005 when officials investigated a neglect complaint about the child, who was born in 1991.

Police said DNA confirmed the man was the child's father and grandfather.

The Associated Press doesn't name alleged victims of sex crimes and isn't naming the man in this case to protect the identity of the daughter, who is now in her 40s.

Did he have custody of the child? If so, charge him with neglect, if the complaint was indeed valid (the paper doesn't indicate the child was, in fact, neglected.) The child would have had to be around 18 years old at the time the man was indicted. If he didn’t have custody, then charge the mother with neglect. Why charge someone with what was apparently consensual sex, especially when it happened two decades ago? The woman was in her 20s at the time. And notice, she chose to have and keep the child instead of choosing abortion, adoption, or abandonment. There is no indication given that the child had any birth defects or that the woman was raped. What a waste of court resources. Either that, or incomplete reporting.

Kristilyn Smith Convicted of a Crime For Consensual Sex

To update a situation I last wrote about here, an adult woman plead no contest to charge of incest for having consensual sex with her father. At least she was given five years probation instead of prison time. The charge should have been dropped anyway. There were apparently crimes in this case. Consensual sex between adults shouldn’t have been the problem.

Prosecutors agreed to drop a charge of child neglect and a second count of incest against Kristilyn Smith, 27, of Daytona Beach, bringing to an end the criminal cases against her. Circuit Judge Kim C. Hammond found Smith guilty of the remaining incest charge.

Judge Hammond, didn’t you feel silly convicting someone of a crime for having sex wth another adult?

The Flagler term of probation will run concurrent with 15 years' probation Smith received in August in Volusia County on another incest charge.

Earlier this year, her father, Alton E. Smith Jr., 48, pleaded guilty to two counts of incest, one count of living off the earnings of prostitution and 52 counts of possession of child pornography. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison, followed by 15 years' sex-offender probation and will be required to register as a sex offender.

He should have gone away for at least that long just for the child porn.

He is also barred from having contact with his daughter or wife.

Ridiculous. I can see denying him contact to his son (he had with Kristilyn) until the son is an adult and can make up his own mind, but as for contact with his wife or Kristilyn, either we have freedom of association or we don’t. Either consensual sex between adults is not a criminal matter, or it is. It is time to consistent.

Also earlier this year, Tina Marie Smith, 45, who is Alton Smith's wife and Kristilyn Smith's stepmother, pleaded guilty to aggravated child abuse and was sentenced to 10 years' sex-offender probation. She will not be listed as a sex offender.

Throw the book at people who molest children. Don’t bother trying to stop consenting adults from sex or love with each other. Let’s remove incest laws or change them so they reinforce laws against rape and child molestation, not to consensual sex.

Auckland Court Goes Easy on Consensual Adult Sex Charge

But isn't it stupid to convict in the the first place? Or even charge them with a crime? I was alerted to this apparent Genetic Sexual Attraction news by Saturn of the Incest News blog. As Saturn points out...

It's unknown whether they actually had sex together, but there is evidence of interest in doing so.

I also agree that...

Adultery is very harmful, but in this situation there should be some understanding about how powerful an attraction can be to a long lost relative. If there had been more knowledge and compassion, perhaps the situation could have turned out better.

I am consistent in saying that one should not have sex if that would violate an existing vow to another. If one is in a relationship that is not open to her or him having sex with this additional person, don't have the sex, or renegotiate the existing agreement(s), or end the existing relationship(s). Adultery, however, should not be a criminal matter. Nor should any consensual adult sex.

From the New Zealand Herald...

An Auckland public official has been convicted of planning a sexual relationship with his long-lost biological daughter whom he had not seen since she was a child.

The man, 58, and his daughter, 41, jointly charged with conspiracy to commit incest, were convicted in the Auckland District Court this week.

They are both adults. So why is this a crime?

The daughter left her husband and children and returned to New Zealand in October 2008 to live with her father and his family.

The daughter's husband in the UK became suspicious and hired a private investigator to tail the pair. He then laid a complaint with the New Zealand police, who laid charges in March last year of conspiracy to commit incest and committing incest.

I know she was wrong to violate her apparent vows to her husband, and it has to be hard on him, but he could have simply filed for divorce. It was also wrong for her to abandon her children.

The pair denied having sex and the more serious incest charge was later withdrawn by police.

But the case has destroyed the man's 36-year marriage and relationships with his other adult children. His occupation has been suppressed and he has been stood down for an internal inquiry.

So they were both committed to others. This is something that someone experiencing GSA should always consider. What they shouldn't have to fear is loss of job or criminal charges.

The couple pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charge and asked Judge Lindsay Moore to discharge them without conviction.

He refused, but gave them suspended sentences, so they escape further penalty unless they commit another crime in the next year.

Judge Moore should have simply tossed the case out.

Kirsty Paterson Has Sentence Reduced

To update a case we've been following, Kirsty Paterson has had her prison sentence removed by judges. She was convicted of the "crime" of having consensual sex with her father.

Both she and Stephen Paterson, 44, admitted committing incest after their sexual relationship was discovered and a sheriff jailed them for 16 months each.

Outrageous. This is the 21st century, and people are still getting assigned prison time for consensual sex.

But judges at the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh quashed the daughter's prison sentence and placed her on probation for two years with a condition that she get counselling as required.

Why does someone need "therapy" for this?

The judge said it should be "immediately recognised" that incest was a serious offence and where committed by an adult on a child the adult offender could expect a prison sentence. But he added: "The situation of consensual intercourse between consanguineous adults is a different one."

Lord Carloway said the court required to mark its disapproval of Paterson's criminal conduct but ultimately had to consider whether sending her to jail was the appropriate method of dealing with her.

Of course loving sex is different than child molestation or rape. Carloway should have taken a stand against the absurdity of the law that punishes the former.

Paterson's father separately attempted to appeal against his sentence late, but it was refused.

Future generations are going to look back and wonder how these authorities could have been so hateful. Consenting adults have a right to sex, love and marriage.

Abuse and Consanguineous Sex in Japan

This article by Lloyd DeMause has disturbing information about the sexual abuse of children in Japan by family members are others. I condemn nonconsensual sex, and in most circumstances, someone under a certain age can’t truly consent to someone is significantly older, or to someone who is their legal guardian.

However, there was some information about sexuality that isn’t experienced under such horrid conditions.

One of the most endogenous societies in the world, Japan has approved of incestuous marriages in court circles even in historical times. Preferred sibling, cousin, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages have been so extensive that genetics experts have discovered that the inbreeding has affected their size and health.

Traditional marriage?

One indication of what is likely to be found is a 1959 study by Kubo showing that there were still rural areas in Japan where fathers married their daughters when the mother had died or was incapacitated, “in accordance with feudal family traditions. Kubo concluded that incest was considered “praiseworthy conduct” in many traditional rural families. In the 36 incest cases he studied in Hiroshima, he found that there was often community moral disapproval of the families who lived in open incestuous marriages, but that the participants themselves did not think of it as immoral. In fact, when the father was unavailable to head the family, his son often took over his role and had sex with his sister in order “to end confusion in the order of the home.” Other members of the family accepted this incest as normal.

I’ll never think of the song “Turning Japanese” the same way again.

The most commonly reported incest occurs when the mother sees her son masturbate as a teenager and tells him, “It’s not good to do it alone. Your IQ becomes lower. I will help you,” or “You cannot study if you cannot have sex. You may use my body,” or “I don’t want you to get into trouble with a girl. Have sex with me instead.” The researchers found that Japanese mothers and sons often sleep in the same bed and have sex together, although the exact incidence in the population was not investigated.

“Teenager” is a wide-ranging term. A nineteen year-old is not a thirteen year-old. So the above practice can be abusive or it can be positive, depending on the age.

According to the phone interviews, Japanese mothers teach their sons how to masturbate helping them to achieve first ejaculation in much the same manner as they earlier helped them with toilet training.

I didn’t need any help from anyone to learn to masturbate. I’m thinking Japanese boys are no different in that respect. I’m sure they can figure it out.

Parents, older siblings, aunts, uncles, and grandparents should never abuse or take advantage of their children or pimp them out. Death is too good for such people. But siblings who are close in age, or a nineteen-year-old son or daughter and parent can have positive, loving, consensual sex, and should not be attacked for doing so; they should be allowed to marry if that’s what they choose. A clear distinction needs to be made between abuse and consensual sex.

A Too Vague News Blurb on Incest Charge

Iowa should be commended for recognizing the right of same-sex couples to marry. It still needs to get with it when it comes to the rights of poly people. And it should be condemned for charging people with a crime for consensual sex, and still having laws that prevent people from exercising their rights simply because they are closely related.

I wish I had more information about this story.

A Rembrandt, Iowa, man has been charged with incest for allegedly having sexual contact with his adult daughter…The man was arrested Monday on the class D felony and booked into the Buena Vista County Jail, where he is being held in lieu of $20,000 bond.

The article gives no indication that this was rape or sexual assault. It says “sexual contact” with another adult and the charge is “incest.” We know from other recent stories that all that has to happen is for someone other than the participants to find out and, thanks to bigotry or jealousy or even mandatory reporting laws, the authorities are informed and get involved, charging someone with a crime. The article doesn’t say that the other participant filed a complaint, and the authorities didn’t see fit to also charge the man with rape or sexual assault, so my guess is that this was a consensual sexual experience. If it was, it is embarrassing that Iowa would charge someone with a crime in this case.

Certainly, both the law and the media should have clear distinctions between rape and child molestation as opposed to consensual sex between adults. It is absurd something that can be consensual, private, and mutually enjoyable is a felony.

Silly Singapore

A young woman in Singapore was criminally accused for engaging in consensual sex with her father, but she got the equivalent of an acquittal.

The 23-year-old technical executive is believed to be the first woman to have been charged with allowing her 46-year-old father to have sex with her willingly in the master bedroom of their flat in Serangoon at about 11.30pm in April 2008.

The father, a freelance plumber, was to have been charged that day as well but did not show up. The court has issued a warrant for his arrest. He is still at large and police investigations are still on-going.

Let the father go, too. Assuming they enjoyed each other sexually, I ask, “So what?” Actually, if they did, then good for them. The article does not point to a victim. That’s because there is no victim. This shouldn’t be a crime. Singapore should change its laws.

Update on Superfluous Incest Prosecution

In an update on something I wrote about previously, we get this headline: “Woman Enters Plea in Prostitution/Incest Case.”

A former Palm Coast woman who, in a case involving prostitution and incest gave birth to her father's son, has entered a plea of no contest to a felony charge of child neglect, prosecutors said.

So why isn’t the headline “Woman Pleads No Contest to Child Neglect?” The headline an this opening line are meant to tie consensual sex between adults – “incest” – to child neglect, as if someone was molesting the child.

Kristilyn Smith, 27, will be sentenced Aug. 31 in Volusia County circuit court for the second-degree felony. The no-contest plea is part of an agreement that will also resolve her criminal charges in Flagler County but prosecutors declined to provide any other information. She could be sentenced to anything from probation to 15 years in prison.

Her father, Alton E. Smith Jr., is serving a 15-year sentence and remains held at the Reception and Medical Center in Lake Butler.

Both the father and his wife, Tina Marie Smith, had been facing child pornography charges. He had a photography business, through which he took pictures of models of all ages.

Kristilyn Smith, who now lives in Daytona Beach, was charged with two counts of incest and one count of prostitution and one count of child neglect in Flagler County.

Child neglect is the real crime. The neglect seems to be from the father and daughter having sex in front of the child. Prosecutors should have gone ahead with the child porn charges against the father and his wife and dropped all “incest” charges. Exploiting children is certainly of more concern than consenting adults having sex, isn’t it?